Finishing question

[rdewinter]

I have made a door for a cabinet, which has a flat panel that I book, matched from a piece of white oak. Oak rails and stiles with grooves and stub tenons house the panel. I will not glue the panel in the frame but will use some spongy material (somewhat like space balls) in the grooves to allow for wood movement.

My question is regarding the staining and finishing the door. Should I stain the panel and rails and stiles, being careful not to stain where glue is applied to fasten the rails and stiles together, or should I glue the door completely together, then fit the door and then stain the assembled door

It’s certainly easier to stain the unassembled pieces but I’m concerned that if sanding and/or cutting is required to fit the door then I’ll have to re-stain the raw cuts and it may not blend very well. I’m using gel stain and I’m also concerned about build up of stain in the corners of the grooves in the rail and stiles

Comments and suggestions welcome?

[beeg]

I wood assemble then stain it. As far as the build up in corners of stain, try using Q-tips to remove the excess.

[Ed in Tampa]

I have made a door for a cabinet, which has a flat panel that I book, matched from a piece of white oak. Oak rails and stiles with grooves and stub tenons house the panel. I will not glue the panel in the frame but will use some spongy material (somewhat like space balls) in the grooves to allow for wood movement.

My question is regarding the staining and finishing the door. Should I stain the panel and rails and stiles, being careful not to stain where glue is applied to fasten the rails and stiles together, or should I glue the door completely together, then fit the door and then stain the assembled door

It’s certainly easier to stain the unassembled pieces but I’m concerned that if sanding and/or cutting is required to fit the door then I’ll have to re-stain the raw cuts and it may not blend very well. I’m using gel stain and I’m also concerned about build up of stain in the corners of the grooves in the rail and stiles

Comments and suggestions welcome?

First you are right to be concerned about build up in corner and in grooves. Also gel stain is rather thick and you want to go with the grain. The rails, stiles and panel will all have grain running in opposite directions. Which means you have wood right next to wood that must be stained but if you touch one piece while you are staining the other you may mess up the first piece. With the door glued up you have a huge problem insuring you don't cross wipe one piece while you are staining the next and etc.

What I would do is dry fit everything.
I would then take it apart and stain each component separately insuring I was mindful of the grain direction.
I would then glue and assemble
I would then apply the finish.

However if the finish was something I was brushing on and was thick or runny I might even be tempted to do it before final assembly.

I did some bathroom cabinets where I prefinished the wood and then glued it up. Unfortunately the finish was wrong and I had to remove it. I was faced with the decision to remake the doors or strip and reuse the one I had. I made the choice to strip and reuse.

I was able to but refinishing was a huge huge huge chore. I had problems with where I would wipe on stain on a rail and then tried to do the same with stile and messed up the rail. I also had huge huge huge problems making the stain uniform in grooves and in corners and such. Finally I did the finish and had huge huge huge problems keeping it out the panel grooves which in effect would glue the panel in place.

I worked through all these problems and it took days and days. I stripped the stain and finish from the doors at least 5 times before I got it to where I could live with it. It was about a 5-6 month process or get the color and finish to what I wanted.

Even today I consider building new doors to replace them. Had the doors not had so much work into them I would.

I did learn a few valuable lessons out of all this. I learned a ton about stains, gel stains, wipe on stain and finishes. I learned a ton about working with maple that will blotch. I learned tons and tons of info about using shellac (this one thing saved my life on these doors). I learned NEVER glue up until the wife give a final and absolute approval on finish, color and design.

Did I mention I learned NEVER NEVER glue up until I get an absolute and final approval on color, finish and design from my wife?????:eek:

[pennview]

My advice would be to only stain the panel and then apply the finish to it before assembly. After gluing and assembly of the stiles and rails for the completed door, you can make any necessary adjustment in it's size if needed and then you can stain and finish the rest of it.

A couple of reasons: first, the door panel will shrink and expand with changing humidity levels over the summer and winter. If you wait till after assembly to stain and finish, you'll likely see those unfinished parts of the panel when it shrinks during the winter months. If you stain/finish the stiles and rails before assembly, it's virtually impossible to protect all of the surfaces that need to be free of finish for a strong glue joint, and this is what you want because stub tenons are fine as long as the glue joint is strong. If I were going to stain and finish all of the door parts before assembly, I'd use a standard mortise and tenon joint, where it would be relatively easy to prevent finish from getting on the tenons or in the mortises.

[berry]

With doors my preferred sequence is to dry fit all the pieces including mounting hinges first. Then take it apart for any final sanding. Apply painters tape to any surfaces that glue. Stain and apply any top coats. Remove tape. Then do the final assembly.

[benchy]

My advice would be to only stain the panel and then apply the finish to it before assembly. After gluing and assembly of the stiles and rails for the completed door, you can make any necessary adjustment in it's size if needed and then you can stain and finish the rest of it.

A couple of reasons: first, the door panel will shrink and expand with changing humidity levels over the summer and winter. If you wait till after assembly to stain and finish, you'll likely see those unfinished parts of the panel when it shrinks during the winter months. If you stain/finish the stiles and rails before assembly, it's virtually impossible to protect all of the surfaces that need to be free of finish for a strong glue joint, and this is what you want because stub tenons are fine as long as the glue joint is strong. If I were going to stain and finish all of the door parts before assembly, I'd use a standard mortise and tenon joint, where it would be relatively easy to prevent finish from getting on the tenons or in the mortises.

Pretty well said. I would second this opinion!

[charlese]

My advice would be to only stain the panel and then apply the finish to it before assembly. After gluing and assembly of the stiles and rails for the completed door, you can make any necessary adjustment in it's size if needed and then you can stain and finish the rest of it.

A couple of reasons: first, the door panel will shrink and expand with changing humidity levels over the summer and winter. If you wait till after assembly to stain and finish, you'll likely see those unfinished parts of the panel when it shrinks during the winter months. If you stain/finish the stiles and rails before assembly, it's virtually impossible to protect all of the surfaces that need to be free of finish for a strong glue joint, and this is what you want because stub tenons are fine as long as the glue joint is strong. If I were going to stain and finish all of the door parts before assembly, I'd use a standard mortise and tenon joint, where it would be relatively easy to prevent finish from getting on the tenons or in the mortises.

Ditto to benchy's comment! Well said!!!!

[rdewinter]

Thanks for all the input and suggestions. Each suggestion proved helpful.

Here are the results of my query. I stained the panel and applied one coat of finish AND stained the shoulders of the groove on the rails and stiles. I then glued and fitted the door in the carcass. After fitting the door, I stained and applied on coat of finish on the rails and stiles. Once dried, I applied a second coat of finish on both sides of the door. The result was a beautiful book matched door. I'll do all future frame and panel doors using this method.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

[wa2crk]

Can we get some pics??
Bill V

[rdewinter]

Here are some pics of the book matched door and the finished project. I call it a Hall secetary. The lid opens up to reveal a hidden compartment under the removable shelf for electronic chargers. The electronics (cell phones, etc) plug in and charge on the shelf. The drawer is for car keys, glasses, etc. The door area is for purses.
The electrical plug strip is in the hidden compartment and the cord is hidden in the door area behind a grooved cleat and exits in a desk grommet in the lower shelf.
It is made of white and red oak solid hardwood and 3/4" grade A1 oak plywood.