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New to Me Model 10E Serial Number 1077

chapmanruss

John,

Is the Document you received different from the PDF ad we each have? If so I would love to see it. I still believe this was made early on for the 10E. First it is pictured in the ad on an early 10E as you noted with the first fence and also has the early trunnion. Second it's part number 123-1X is from before all the part numbers changed in November 1951. If it had been made only in the late 10ER production it would have a different part number. My guess as to why there are not very many out there is these were an additional item and Magna soon came up with the more common arm the attaches to the table post with the screw that raises and lowers it. That was most likely cheaper to produce and is simpler to use with the same effect. It quickly became a standard item on the Shopsmith which is why so many have it. As to the quote from the Ad we have in PDF form...

"Table is raised quickly to a position near the desired setting. It can then be raised by a screw adjustment to the precise setting required. No slow, tedious cranking to move the table up and down, but precision where precision is needed."

No slow, tedious cranking What does that mean if this is the first table raiser?

Although it says "to move the table up and down" I'm not sure they were talking about the Shopsmith but may be referring to other tools. Either Table Rising Assembly depends on the table being moved close to the correct height than set the post on the early one or the arm on the later system and turn the screw adjustment to set the correct height.

Both set the table to the "precise setting required." Just my feeling on the subject.

jsburger

chapmanruss wroteJohn,

Is the Document you received different from the PDF ad we each have? If so I would love to see it. I still believe this was made early on for the 10E. First it is pictured in the ad on an early 10E as you noted with the first fence and also has the early trunnion. Second it's part number 123-1X is from before all the part numbers changed in November 1951. If it had been made only in the late 10ER production it would have a different part number. My guess as to why there are not very many out there is these were an additional item and Magna soon came up with the more common arm the attaches to the table post with the screw that raises and lowers it. That was most likely cheaper to produce and is simpler to use with the same effect. It quickly became a standard item on the Shopsmith which is why so many have it. As to the quote from the Ad we have in PDF form...

"Table is raised quickly to a position near the desired setting. It can then be raised by a screw adjustment to the precise setting required. No slow, tedious cranking to move the table up and down, but precision where precision is needed."

No slow, tedious cranking What does that mean if this is the first table raiser?
Although it says "to move the table up and down" I'm not sure they were talking about the Shopsmith but may be referring to other tools. Either Table Rising Assembly depends on the table being moved close to the correct height than set the post on the early one or the arm on the later system and turn the screw adjustment to set the correct height.

Both set the table to the "precise setting required." Just my feeling on the subject.

You are probably correct given the part number issue.

JPG

jsburger wrote
chapmanruss wroteJohn,

Is the Document you received different from the PDF ad we each have? If so I would love to see it. I still believe this was made early on for the 10E. First it is pictured in the ad on an early 10E as you noted with the first fence and also has the early trunnion. Second it's part number 123-1X is from before all the part numbers changed in November 1951. If it had been made only in the late 10ER production it would have a different part number. My guess as to why there are not very many out there is these were an additional item and Magna soon came up with the more common arm the attaches to the table post with the screw that raises and lowers it. That was most likely cheaper to produce and is simpler to use with the same effect. It quickly became a standard item on the Shopsmith which is why so many have it. As to the quote from the Ad we have in PDF form...

"Table is raised quickly to a position near the desired setting. It can then be raised by a screw adjustment to the precise setting required. No slow, tedious cranking to move the table up and down, but precision where precision is needed."

No slow, tedious cranking What does that mean if this is the first table raiser?
Although it says "to move the table up and down" I'm not sure they were talking about the Shopsmith but may be referring to other tools. Either Table Rising Assembly depends on the table being moved close to the correct height than set the post on the early one or the arm on the later system and turn the screw adjustment to set the correct height.

Both set the table to the "precise setting required." Just my feeling on the subject.
You are probably correct given the part number issue.

I think it means you can pre position the table quickly by either manually moving it OR use the course pitched elevation crank, THEN, Fine tune it with the "Table raiser". That is why it has a quick set adjustment.

As for the chicken/egg question I haven't a clue, but I suspect it came later but was expensive so few were purchased. I have not seen it in any accessory info I have.

jsburger

JPG wrote
jsburger wrote
chapmanruss wrote
John,

Is the Document you received different from the PDF ad we each have? If so I would love to see it. I still believe this was made early on for the 10E. First it is pictured in the ad on an early 10E as you noted with the first fence and also has the early trunnion. Second it's part number 123-1X is from before all the part numbers changed in November 1951. If it had been made only in the late 10ER production it would have a different part number. My guess as to why there are not very many out there is these were an additional item and Magna soon came up with the more common arm the attaches to the table post with the screw that raises and lowers it. That was most likely cheaper to produce and is simpler to use with the same effect. It quickly became a standard item on the Shopsmith which is why so many have it. As to the quote from the Ad we have in PDF form...

Although it says "to move the table up and down" I'm not sure they were talking about the Shopsmith but may be referring to other tools. Either Table Rising Assembly depends on the table being moved close to the correct height than set the post on the early one or the arm on the later system and turn the screw adjustment to set the correct height.

Both set the table to the "precise setting required." Just my feeling on the subject.

You are probably correct given the part number issue.

I think it means you can pre position the table quickly by either manually moving it OR use the course pitched elevation crank, THEN, Fine tune it with the "Table raiser". That is why it has a quick set adjustment.

As for the chicken/egg question I haven't a clue, but I suspect it came later but was expensive so few were purchased. I have not seen it in any accessory info I have.

Russ said they were talking about other than SS tools when they said "tedious cranking" in the document. What other tools were out there that had this feature back then? Why would you mention some unnamed tool in a customer brochure for your product. I would think that you would tout the advancement of this new accessory over the previous.

Here is another curious statement in the brochure.

"Shopsmith Table Raising assembly can be installed quickly and easily. All shopsmith carriages are drilled and tapped to fit the 1/2" cap screw supplied with this assembly."

So, if this is the first table raiser why would you state this in the customer document. Obviously if you need to mount the table raiser on the carriage there would be a threaded hole. You don't need to tell the consumer that.

Another thing is why a 1/2" threaded hole? From a design point that seems to me to be way over kill. A 1/4" or at the most a 5/16" bolt would be more than enough to secure the table raiser unless you are using an existing hole.

I agree with you James but Russ' point about the part number puts a monkey wrench in all this.

Russ, the original document I just received is the same as the copy we have. It is in absolutely pristine condition. $18 but so what? It is attached.

10ER Table Raiser0001.pdf

JPG

The "1/2 inch" screw fits the table raiser crank hole.

So it needs to be pre set manually only.

chapmanruss

They had to have plans for some kind of accessory to attach in the 1/2" Threaded Hole in the carriage since it has been part of the Carriage casting from the beginning. Below is the Carriage from S/N 1077.

The 1/2" bolt for attaching the "first" Table Raising Assembly may be overkill but not for the Crank Screw that raises the Arm that attaches to the table post in the more common Table Raiser. Now it has me just wondering about their thought processes.

103-2 marked.jpg

jsburger

chapmanruss wroteThey had to have plans for some kind of accessory to attach in the 1/2" Threaded Hole in the carriage since it has been part of the Carriage casting from the beginning. Below is the Carriage from S/N 1077.

103-2 marked.jpg

The 1/2" bolt for attaching the "first" Table Raising Assembly may be overkill but not for the Crank Screw that raises the Arm that attaches to the table post in the more common Table Raiser. Now it has me just wondering about their thought processes.

Which is all why I questioned the order of release. Here is a list of what I think is questionable.

1. All carriages have 1/2" holes. As you say it is the right size for the crank but I think it is way over kill for the other table raiser. So why was such a large bolt used for the non crank table raiser if it came first? If it didn't come first it was there so they used it.

2. The table raiser brochure mentions eliminating tedious cranking. Why would you mention that unless you were talking about your own product. It does not make sense to me that they would be talking about some unknown machine by some unknown manufacturer.

3. Why mention in the brochure that the table raiser mounts to the 1/2" drilled and tapped hole that all Shopsmith carriages have if that hole was put there in the first place to attach that table raiser.

But there is a fly in the ointment. Your point about the part number is a very valid one. It could be that the table raiser was an early design improvement that got assigned a part number and never got produced until later and the part number was never changed.

We will probably never know.

chapmanruss

John did you take Debating in School? You have the qualities of a good debater.

You wrote commenting on my previous post about the 1/2" threaded hole being there from the begining

Which is all why I questioned the order of release. Here is a list of what I think is questionable.

All carriages have 1/2" holes. As you say it is the right size for the crank but I think it is way over kill for the other table raiser. So why was such a large bolt used for the non crank table raiser if it came first? If it didn't come first it was there so they used it.

The table raiser brochure mentions eliminating tedious cranking. Why would you mention that unless you were talking about your own product. It does not make sense to me that they would be talking about some unknown machine by some unknown manufacturer.

Why mention in the brochure that the table raiser mounts to the 1/2" drilled and tapped hole that all Shopsmith carriages have if that hole was put there in the first place to attach that table raiser.

But there is a fly in the ointment. Your point about the part number is a very valid one. It could be that the table raiser was an early design improvement that got assigned a part number and never got produced until later and the part number was never changed.

We will probably never know.

I'm going to throw another "Monkey Wrench" into the mix. Attached is the Instructions for the "Crank and Arm" Table Raiser in the PDF below.

This is the instructions and not an ad but some terminology is the same between the two types of Table Raising Assemblies even though they are being described for different purposes. One is to sell it the other is how to use it. They both use the term "Micro Adjustment" in what the two assemblies will do for you. Unfortunately neither the ad or the instructions have a date on them. The only thing we have to go by is they are both shown on a 10E with the early Table Trunnion.

My thought on your item #2 - Both types eliminate tedious cranking since they were designed to have the table adjusted to the approximate height then the rod of the one or the arm of the other is set and the the "Micro Adjustment" is made by turning the screw knob or the crank.

My thought on your itemMain Woodworking Forum - Is it possible that both systems were in planning when the first 10E's were being made requiring something on the carriage for them?

My thought on your item #3 - Mentioning in the ad that the table raiser mounts to the 1/2" drilled and tapped hole that all Shopsmith carriages have is a selling point that no modifications are needed to use this accessory.

Finally I can't believe that the rod and screw system came out near the end of the 10ER being made and they left the old number on it. Since the numbers changed about two years before Model 10ER production ended.

Also, I just noticed, it is listed (no picture) as an accessory in the parts lists of the early 10E Manuals as 123-1X. So I checked and the Arm & Crank are listed in the 1951 Manual as 103-38 Table Riser Arm, 103-46RX Table Riser Knob and Stud and 103-40X or 103-39X Table Riser Screw and Handle.

John I think you have said it best... We will probably never know.

Table Raising Assembly.PDF

jsburger

No debating experience Russ. I just enjoy reading things critically when definitive information is not available and try to determine what might have happened based on the words that were written. I think we have said all there is to say on the subject so unless some documentation with dates shows up we will never know.

JPG

A good 'debater' has good 'deductive thinking'. :cool:

chapmanruss

One of the differences I have noticed between this early Model 10E and later 10E's is the use of brass parts. The early wedges were brass and so is the Stop Flange part number 103-12 used in the table trunnion assembly. My 10E S/N 4708 also had this part in brass but later Model 10E's S/N 8865 and above that I have or have had no longer had this part in brass nor brass wedges.

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

In doing the comparison of parts I am reminded of one I found when restoring S/N 4708 and S/N 8865. As with this 10E, 4708 has the early Quill Gauge Collar which was replaced by the collar which allows attachments to the quill such as the Mortise. 8865 has a cast iron version of the collar where as others are Aluminum. The Cast Iron Collar is the center one below.

Most of the parts have been cleaned up. Next will be working on the painted parts and restoring the way tubes. For being over 70 years old now this Shopsmith is in pretty good condition. Still more pictures to be taken of the parts and assemblies.

103-12 Stop Flange - 103-13 and 13N Screw and Nut s.jpg

Quill Collars.jpg

chapmanruss

Sorry for not posting for a while but I was busy with other things and just returned from vacation. Next I have some honey-do's to work on like moving a wall, adding a closet, remodeling a bathroom and installing about 850 Sq. Ft. of flooring so my progress on the 10E has slowed. Soon I will have to build it's bench using Shopsmith Metal Bench Ends and Retractable Wheels I have but I need to decide what wood to use. Should I use standard 2" x 8" boards or something nicer? On the first one I restored (S/N R64000) I used KD 2" x 8" lumber which came out very nice looking with a good finish on them. My wife was upset that I used such nice pieces of wood for a bench to mount a tool on and that it should be for a bench to sit on. As I get the painted pieces finished it is nice to start mounting them on the bench beginning with the Base and re-assembling machine. That way they are not getting moved around the shop and knocking paint chips off of them.

jsburger

chapmanruss wrote
Sorry for not posting for a while but I was busy with other things and just returned from vacation. Next I have some honey-do's to work on like moving a wall, adding a closet, remodeling a bathroom and installing about 850 Sq. Ft. of flooring so my progress on the 10E has slowed. Soon I will have to build it's bench using Shopsmith Metal Bench Ends and Retractable Wheels I have but I need to decide what wood to use. Should I use standard 2" x 8" boards or something nicer? On the first one I restored (S/N R64000) I used KD 2" x 8" lumber which came out very nice looking with a good finish on them. My wife was upset that I used such nice pieces of wood for a bench to mount a tool on and that it should be for a bench to sit on. As I get the painted pieces finished it is nice to start mounting them on the bench beginning with the Base and re-assembling machine. That way they are not getting moved around the shop and knocking paint chips off of them.

I would use something "nicer" particularly given the serial number of the machine. I used 6/4 popular. Maybe it is not "nicer" but different. I spaced the metal legs the distance Magna specified but I made the boards wide enough and long enough to overhang the legs 1/2". The outside top edges were rounded over with a 1/4" round over bit. The two inside edges down the center were rounded over with a 1/8" round over bit. Finished with 3 or four coats of Helmsman poly.

chapmanruss

Beautiful wood on that bench John. That is kind of what I was thinking about. Wood with a more interesting grain pattern than plain fir boards. Besides nice wood a great job on the restoration of that 10ER.

chapmanruss

In my comparison of parts from my early 10E (S/N 1077) and later Model 10's I noticed the following from a 10E S/N 1922 for sale near me. It appears to have the same pin to hold the Quill Spring Housing in place as my 10E S/N 1077 instead if the more common cast on blocks. I have not been able to see it in person as it is about three and a half hours away from me.

[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]

Below is the more common cast on blocks on a later 10ER Headstock.

Everett,

If I am correct that 10E S/N 1922 has the pin, then does your 10E S/N 1414 also have the pin instead of the cast on blocks? Also is your Quill Spring Housing aluminum or steel? On 10E S/N 1922 above it looks like the side of the Housing is "pushed" in similar to my Aluminum one on 1077. Steel ones do not tend to "push" in like that. I wonder if that is the reason they added the extra washer.

10E 1922.jpg

Headstock 102 110 V5 r.jpg

BuckeyeDennis

Russ, my 10E SN 1750 has cast bosses and a steel spring housing. But the cast bosses appear to be a bit smaller than the ones in your photo.

10E SN1750.JPG

chapmanruss

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for adding to this. The headstock with the wider cast on Spring Housing Blocks is the last version of the headstocks. It is a picture I happen to have to show this version of the headstock, not from one I have owned. I had not noticed until now the two widths. I just went out to look at the Model 10's I currently have. Here is what I found-

S/N 1077 has the pin (headstock version 1)

S/N 4708 has 2 narrow castings (headstock version 2)

S/N 17731 has 1 narrow casting - lower only - never had an upper one (headstock version 2)

S/N R36013 has 2 narrow castings (headstock version 3)

S/N R55037 has 2 wide castings (headstock version 4)

S/N R64000 has 2 wide castings (headstock version 4)

S/N 69236 has 2 wide castings (headstock version 5)

The first three have plain Spring Housings and the other four have the Indexing Spring Housing. A good thing to know if someone is changing the Indexing Spring Housing for some reason and wants to get the correct cast on block width opening. With that said, yes I found there are two different Indexing Spring Housings. One for the narrow casting blocks and one for the wider casting blocks. I did not know that before. It is interesting that Magna did this since they then needed to recast the Spring Housing to match the wider blocks.

This is how I have been defining the different Headstock versions which is a little different than Everett has. The serial numbers listed are ones I own or have owned.

5 Headstock versions (plus the preproduction headstock with the front drive sleeve set screw)

1 – First 10E’s Pin for Quill return spring housing instead of cast on blocks as on all later headstocks, brass double wedge quill and way tube locks (10E S/N 1077)

2- Double wedge quill and way tube locks (10E S/N 8865, 13223, 17731, 19541) Early 10E brass double wedges for quill and way tube locks (10E S/N 4708)

3 - Double wedge quill and way tube locks & keyed quill lock (10E S/N 25951, 10ER S/N’s R33231, R36013, R41856, R42458, R50474)

4 - Single wedge quill and way tube locks (10ER S/N’s R55037, R55582, R57367, R60582, R63716, R64000)

5 - Single wedges but cutout behind logo plate (10ER S/N R64381, 69236, 76928)

I looked at the pictures of the ones I have already restored and sold to see how they fit into the Spring Housing block castings. Below is the results with the five I still own. I did not have pictures good enough to identify what 10E S/N 13223 had.

Pin with plain Housing (1077) Headstock 1

Narrow castings with plain Housing (4708, 8865) Headstock 2

Narrow casting - bottom only with plain Housing (17731, 19541) Headstock 2

Narrow castings with Index Housing (25951, R33231, R36013, R41856, R42458) Headstock 3 & 4

Wide castings with Index Housing (R50474, R55037, R55582, R57367, R60582, R63716, R64000, R64381, 69236, 76928) Headstock 4 & 5

When you look at all the changes made to the Headstock it appears we may have at least 7 versions not counting the pre-production headstock.

chapmanruss

Finished the Table parts and photographed the individual parts except those that do not want to come apart, ie. the Trunnion Lock parts. No surprises for the Carriage/Table parts but it did not have a Carriage Positioning Stud and Nut parts 103-29 and 103-29N. I don't know if it wasn't included in this early model or if it was lost. I do have extras so I can add it. Working on this a little is my break from the honey do list I am working on for my wife.

chapmanruss

Last night I was spending a little time working on the Shopsmith. I noticed something about the Saw Guard part 103-34. The slot where the Splitter goes is not as deep for the Saw Guard that belongs to this 10E. It cannot use the same splitter as later ones have.
[attachment=1]$matches[2][/attachment]The Splitter part, number 103-35, was missing for this machine. It is hard to know what it looks like since the Original Manual pictures of the 10E do not show the Saw Guard and Splitter. Only Everett's diagrams at the end of the manual show a splitter which looks the same as later ones.

Everett are the drawings for the Original Manual you restored from that manual or did you create them?

103-34 Saw Guard top 1077s on right r.jpg

103-34 Saw Guard bottom 1077s on right r.jpg

jsburger

chapmanruss wroteLast night I was spending a little time working on the Shopsmith. I noticed something about the Saw Guard part 103-34. The slot where the Splitter goes is not as deep for the Saw Guard that belongs to this 10E. It cannot use the same splitter as later ones have.

$matches[2]103-34 Saw Guard bottom 1077s on right r.jpgThe Splitter part, number 103-35, was missing for this machine. It is hard to know what it looks like since the Original Manual pictures of the 10E do not show the Saw Guard and Splitter. Only Everett's diagrams at the end of the manual show a splitter which looks the same as later ones.

Everett are the drawings for the Original Manual you restored from that manual or did you create them?

Check the 10E preliminary manual Everett restored from my original. It shows the guard and spliter in the diagrams at the end of the manual. There is only one view but it might give you a hint .

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