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GFCI protected circuits

garys

This explanation indicates that the GFCI is not needed on a dust collector, and likely serves no purpose for static electricity. Since I have it on a GFCI, I will leave it that way for now. If I don't get false tripping of the GFCI, I'll leave it this way. If I have problems in the future, I'll simply remove the GFCI.

edma194

I tripped a 20 amp AFCI breaker the other day starting up the 510 headstock on the drill press. It was first thing in the morning and it was pretty cold down in the basement, and the speed dial may have been up to D. I flipped the breaker and it was fine. I didn't think the AFCI breaker could make a difference but just saw this section from wikipedia about them:

"AFCIs are designed to protect against fires caused by electrical arc faults. While the sensitivity of the AFCIs helps in the detection of arc faults, these breakers can also indicate false positives by identifying normal circuit behaviors as arc faults. For instance, lightning strikes provide voltage and current profiles that resemble arc faults, and vacuum cleaners and some laser printers trip AFCIs. This nuisance tripping reduces the overall effectiveness of AFCIs. Research into advancements in this area is being pursued."

I do think it was just a sluggish start up the other day, but maybe we have to be keeping an eye out for AFCI problems also. Those things are required in new construction just about everywhere now I think.

RFGuy

Yeah, arc fault protectors are a whole other animal. They have been around for awhile but were seldom used in the past, but it does seem like some regions are mandating them more and more now. I don't know much about them, other than that they exist. What I find curious is that they started requiring them in bedrooms only and have continued to add more and more rooms to the list of required spaces to protect from arc faults (see link below). I don't know the details of how they work but I would suspect that any equipment with induction motors with brushes, in theory, could trip an AFCI breaker. Just depends on the condition of the brushes at any given time. The way I view it is a shop is like a manufacturing floor in a factory. You want to provide electrical power safely to all of the equipment and protect the operators but there are always hazards which is why operators and supervisors have to be diligent to protect human life (and property). GFCI and AFCI's were created to prevent freak accidents and human error in operation, i.e. doing things you shouldn't do. Don't get me wrong, safety devices are needed and welcome in many cases, but they won't protect against everything. A more common risk in a home shop, IMHO, is leaving cordless chargers plugged in 24/7 which can cause fires in the worst case. Unplugging equipment not in use, e.g. putting cordless chargers on a timer or switch to turn off is better use of your time than trying to protect against arcs and ground faults in a shop. Also having the proper rating fire extinguisher in the shop in case of an electrical fire due to an arc condition during operation might be a good idea. Just my opinion.

Of course if you have old equipment that isn't well insulated or properly double insulated like with modern, corded, hand-held power tools then a GFCI is a must, so there are always exceptions...Keep in mind a nuisance trip of an AFCI/GFCI could happen mid operation, e.g. during a saw cut and an accident could happen as a result of being caught off guard by this.

https://homeinspectioninsider.com/common-questions-afci-requirements/

DLB

garys wrote This explanation indicates that the GFCI is not needed on a dust collector, and likely serves no purpose for static electricity. Since I have it on a GFCI, I will leave it that way for now. If I don't get false tripping of the GFCI, I'll leave it this way. If I have problems in the future, I'll simply remove the GFCI.

With the latest NEC changes adding unfinished basements to the list of areas requiring GFCI, I suspect that vast majority of our home shops are in areas requiring GFCI. Though many are obviously grandfathered to the requirements in place at the time of construction and/or modification. One would presume that most shop equipment would not cause false tripping, the garage requirement has been in place for a long time (80's IIRC).

I'm favorably impressed that fewer PowerPro users seem to have actually experienced the problems cited by Shopsmith when using the outlet style GFCI. I interpreted the written cautions about it much more negatively. I was just looking for that paper to see how it was worded and can't put my hands on it right now. I had been avoiding those circuits, prevalent in my garage shop, which limits me to one available outlet. I had in mind to add a 230 V circuit for the PowerPro because I thought it would be cheaper than switching to a GFCI CB, but I now see that requirements have changed and the 230V outlet would also have to be protected, adding about $100, or roughly tripling, the material cost for me.

- David

RFGuy

DLB wrote With the latest NEC changes adding unfinished basements to the list of areas requiring GFCI, I suspect that vast majority of our home shops are in areas requiring GFCI.

- David

You have a basement in Texas??? From my understanding they are somewhat common in the MidWest and rare in the rest of the US. Too expensive to dig for them out here, particularly with caliche. I believe garages are far more common today than basements (https://www.basementguides.com/why-are-there-no-basements-in-some-states/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20United%20States,are%20on%20a%20downward%20trend.&text=In%202000%2C%2040%25%20of%20homes%20were%20built%20with%20basements.&text=By%202013%2C%20that%20number%20was,basements%20for%20new%2Dbuild%20houses.).

Always follow the NEC for your local area, but it my understanding that GFCI's are ONLY required for things that plug in, i.e. on receptacles and only in specific locations. Anything permanent wired (on it's own dedicated branch circuit) like a 240V dust collector can be, I believe is exempt from needing a GFCI...but check your local building codes and NEC.

edma194

RFGuy wrote You have a basement in Texas??? From my understanding they are somewhat common in the MidWest and rare in the rest of the US. Too expensive to dig for them out here, particularly with caliche.

The majority of houses in the Northeast have basements because the foundation has to be dug out down to the frost line anyway. It doesn't cost that much more to keep digging and make a full basement.

RFGuy

edma194 wrote The majority of houses in the Northeast have basements because the foundation has to be dug out down to the frost line anyway. It doesn't cost that much more to keep digging and make a full basement.

Did you read the article? That used to be the case, but the trend is, and has been, away from basements. 82 million single family homes in US now have garages (out of 213 million).

DLB

RFGuy wrote You have a basement in Texas???

Um, no. Sorry if that was misleading. My shop is in my garage. What I was trying to say is that most of our shops are either in a garage or basement or other facility that, as of the 2020 NEC revision, require GFCI. The wettest location I've ever used for my shop was a basement though, and it seemed strange to me that at the time GFCI was not required there but it was required in the garage. The GFCI requirements, as well as the AFCI requirements, seem to continuously expand. Perhaps there is a lobby involved.

At least some hard-wired equipment is now included. Specific examples are HVAC and pool pumps. Also a range if it is within 6' of a sink.

- David

edma194

RFGuy wrote

Did you read the article? That used to be the case, but the trend is, and has been, away from basements. 82 million single family homes in US now have garages (out of 213 million).

I hadn't before, but now that I did I saw this part:

"One of the main reasons why northern buildings often have basements is the depth of the frost line. When you build a home, the foundations need to be below the depth of the frost line. In the north of the country (and particularly in the midwest) this requires deep foundations, thus making a basement far more practical."

They don't mention the northeast in particular but I see no signs that there is a decrease in the number of basements in new construction around here. The difference in price for the amount of space you get is very small once you have to dig down below the frost line. "

DLB

RFGuy wrote 82 million single family homes in US now have garages (out of 213 million).

I'm calling for a fact check on this one, though I see that number out there. Gotta love the internet. 213 million single family homes in the US??? Seems way high. I saw another site that said 95 million. If I had to believe one of those...

- David

edma194

Yeah, that would be 2 out of 3 people owning a single family home in the US. Doesn't seem likely.

RFGuy

Good points! Yeah, it is always healthy to challenge assumptions, particularly one's own. Sorry, I fell short in this case. :o Realize, of course, that this new data only helps make my point, meaning that there is a higher percentage with garages now (if the one stat about garages is true). So keep in mind that not all homes are occupied...there are rental units, cabins in the woods, dilapidated & unoccupied homes, etc. Another factor is that in areas with cheap land and/or high growth houses are more likely to be built new than sold/renovated which causes oversupply. This has definitely been the case here where I live the past few decades. IF you believe Quora, which I rarely do, there are 95 million single family homes in the US. However if you look at US census data there were 139.7 million housing units in 2019 though single vs. multi-family is not broken out. For comparison there are believed to be at least 330 million people living in the US though some speculate that the true number is closer to 400 million due to CENSUS undercounting.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-single-family-homes-are-there-in-the-US

It is hard to believe anything you read online any more, even what is posted on this forum. A lot of the statistics belong more and more to market research companies so stats that used to be freely available online a few years ago can't be accessed any more without paying for them. Combine this with so many fake online accounts and ads, it is like the Wild, Wild West online these days. This problem only seems to be getting worse, not better in my opinion. :(

JPG

Then the question remains - attached or not.

RFGuy

DLB wrote ]Um, no. Sorry if that was misleading. My shop is in my garage. What I was trying to say is that most of our shops are either in a garage or basement or other facility that, as of the 2020 NEC revision, require GFCI. The wettest location I've ever used for my shop was a basement though, and it seemed strange to me that at the time GFCI was not required there but it was required in the garage. The GFCI requirements, as well as the AFCI requirements, seem to continuously expand. Perhaps there is a lobby involved.

At least some hard-wired equipment is now included. Specific examples are HVAC and pool pumps. Also a range if it is within 6' of a sink.

- David

David,

Thanks. I hadn't reviewed the NEC in awhile so your post prompted me to investigate further and I learned a few new things from this. The NEC is complex and ever changing/expanding, so what follows is only my understanding of it and not advice for anyone (full disclaimer). I don't have the 2020 NEC to read ($$$), but just going off of changes posted online this is what I see. There is a really good summary document of the 2020 specific changes linked below (file was too large to post on the forum). What I found interesting was page 5 that has a useful table for detailing the "basic" requirements for where a GFCI or AFCI are required in different parts of the house. It shows that every receptacle in bedrooms now need both a GFCI and AFCI. Of course this is the latest NEC and many cities are slow to adopt the latest NEC, so if you are remodeling you still have to find out if these new rules apply to you yet.

The pool pump one is interesting and in my case doesn't apply. Rule 680.21(C) has been changed from the 2017 version and now only outlets used to connect pool pumps of 150V or less require a GFCI. It does look like the NEC slightly relaxed the GFCI requirement on pool pump motors from 2017->2020. Here out west the vast majority of pool pumps are direct connect (not on an outlet) and run on 240V so no GFCI required on pool pump motors here. For HVAC, rule 210.63 requires GFCI for outlets near HVAC equipment so this really only applies to the 120V outlet (for service) next to your furnace/AC in the attic as an example, i.e. it doesn't apply to direct connect 240V equipment (such as furnace/AC/heat pump/air handler). Lastly, I checked the garage section and again it only applies to 120V or 240V outlets in garages and anything direct connected is exempted. I just wanted to point out that the NEC does differentiate between direct connect versus items plugged into outlets so I am 99% certain any tool that is direct wired in a shop doesn't require GFCI/AFCI. Of course if one has a particularly damp basement or garage it may be prudent to install a GFCI anyway. Remember the overarching theme of GFCI protection has to do with avoiding electrocution from things you are in close proximity to and really only things that you touch AND are near a sink/pool, etc. which is why the 6' from water source is often in the requirements. If you have a big enough dust collector that is 240V and likely direct connected do you ever really touch the equipment while it is in operation? Electrocution risk is pretty darn low on a properly wired dust collector, even in a damp basement/garage where your only real connection to it is a plastic hose connected to your equipment. On the other hand, a tablesaw in a damp environment may be more of a risk for you since you are near it and touching it fairly regularly. NEC is clear for it...requires a GFCI if powered from outlet, but direct connect is still exempt based on my understanding of the NEC. However, most people will plug in a tablesaw so that it can be mobile so GFCI needed.

Another interesting addition was in 230.67 where new construction or replacement of a service panel on an existing house now requires a whole house surge protector to be installed at the service panel to protect electronics.

List of 2020 NEC Changes:

https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/residential/electrical-safety/electrical-safety-national-electrical-code-2020-br1610048en.pdf

2017 vs. 2020 NEC regarding pool pumps:

https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=958.0

DLB

That Eaton summary is much better, also considerably longer, than the one I was using. I see that some parts I was interpreting wrong. Range only appears to require GFCI if there's a plug in receptacle, I had said hard-wired. On page 22 it explains the HVAC thing much better than the brief summary I had read, but clearly(?) says it includes the outdoor unit: "Outdoor receptacles are already required to be GFCI protected for 125-volt through 250-volt. Due to a reported tragic incident, this requirement for outdoor has evolved to outlets. This would include hard-wired or direct connected equipment applications such as the 240-volt air conditioner unit, heat pump, water well, septic systems, etc" Also, note the difference between 'outlet' and 'receptacle' as the terms are used differently than many of us use 'outlet.'

The way I read the pool pump requirement includes both 240 Volt and direct connection. The changes made were for consistent wording, not relaxation of requirements. This requirement is unusual in requiring the change upon replacement of the connected device, the pump, rather than upon changes to the circuit.

In my layman's understanding the 240 VAC requirements for GFCI are new, as are the hard-wired equipment requirements. The hard-wired equipment requirements are outdoor only at present. Opinion - if you measured by cost of compliance, the 2020 expansion of GFCI is the largest ever. Many of the new requirements can only be met by replacing CBs, and these are relatively expensive solutions.

- David

RFGuy

DLB wrote Also, note the difference between 'outlet' and 'receptacle' as the terms are used differently than many of us use 'outlet.'

- David

David,

The proper term is "receptacle outlet" though receptacle and outlet have been nearly interchangeable for years. I consciously chose "outlet" in my post simply because it is shorter to type. However in re-reading some of these NEC changes I see that you are right. It is a bit confusing (unless you are a licensed electrician). I believe in precision of language and that words matter, so in hindsight my post created confusion which was not my intent. Now I know that the NEC differentiates between "outlet" and "receptacle". I thought it was odd that the pool changes, e.g. had 150V as the requirement. I now see that the pool and HVAC sections consider it per conductor and outlet is essentially any electrical egress from the structure. Below is a good reference link that discusses the definition of "outlet" according to the NEC. Thanks for pointing this out. I agree, this is going to add significant cost to new building and remodels.

https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=812.0

An “Outlet”, according to the NEC Article 100 definition, is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

DLB

I know we are way off track from the intent of this thread. As a layman, I'd like to be able to depend on the 'licensed electricians' to know this stuff. Here's reality. I'm looking at buying a new home in Texas as a rental. I presume it was wired by a licensed electrician. When I looked on my own I was pleased to see many more GFCI receptacles than my own home or my current rental. And there were several AFCI breakers in the box, so my first intuition was that it was done right. Enter the inspector, also licensed and working for me as the buyer, who finds numerous shortfalls to his inspection criteria. By this time I had looked into a 230 V outlet in my garage and learned a bit about the 2020 code. And I saw shortfalls that the inspector did not see. I later realized his criteria are based on the 2017 NEC, so I have a question out to him as to why that is. I'm using the dryer outlet as the example because we are ~100% sure on this one requiring GFCI and that it is a new NEC 2020 requirement. So:

1) I don't know what standards were applied by the electrician.

2) In TX, most cities do and most counties do not have local standards and their own inspectors. This home is in county jurisdiction.

3) TX adopted NEC 2020 at the state level. There's some confusion to the layman over the effective date.

4) The inspector, who works for me, applied criteria based on NEC 2017.

5) Any rework would be subject to something, and inspected by me unless I want to hire another inspection.

In short, it is fairly confusing to the buyer/layman. And adding licensed electricians and inspectors does not significantly reduce confusion, though it should, unless everyone has a clear explanation for what they are doing and why.

- David

RFGuy

David,

Yeah, it can be frustrating...I know. When I built my first house, I found several items that were not correct to the NEC code that I knew at the time. I challenged the super on the job and tried to get it addressed during construction but they didn't change. In digging into it I found out that the local city or county hadn't adopted the newer code books. I can't remember if it was the NEC or the plumbing code book or one of the others but my local area was using a 20 year old code book for one of them. All of them were older revisions and not curent. We have been booming here ever since I moved here and your area may be similar. I think any area with lots of growth tends to be very slow on adopting new building codes. Like in any profession there are going to be some Electrician's/building inspectors that know all the latest NEC changes and some who won't. I know in recent years it has gotten harder to get and to maintain an electrical license. They now require a certain number of training hours each year to keep Electrician's up to date on NEC changes, etc. Presumably this is a good thing.

DLB

A follow-up, because I found this surprising. I was looking at a combined AFI/GFI Circuit Breaker at HD because current NEC has those as combined requirements for some circuits: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-CH-15-Amp-All-in-One-AF-GF-Breaker-CHFN115A1CS/311720932 The amazing part, other than price, is this: "Built-in LED indicates seven trip causes" SEVEN! Overcurrent, Arc Fault, Ground Fault, and four more? I hope it comes with an owner's manual. And a home wiring diagram. Coming soon, no doubt, in increasingly wide-spread use. (The rental house I'm looking at buying currently has two Eaton CBs that combine current with arc and ground faults, though I don't know if it is this specific model.)

- David

RFGuy

DLB wrote
A follow-up, because I found this surprising. I was looking at a combined AFI/GFI Circuit Breaker at HD because current NEC has those as combined requirements for some circuits: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-CH-15-Amp-All-in-One-AF-GF-Breaker-CHFN115A1CS/311720932 The amazing part, other than price, is this: "Built-in LED indicates seven trip causes" SEVEN! Overcurrent, Arc Fault, Ground Fault, and four more? I hope it comes with an owner's manual. And a home wiring diagram. Coming soon, no doubt, in increasingly wide-spread use. (The rental house I'm looking at buying currently has two Eaton CBs that combine current with arc and ground faults, though I don't know if it is this specific model.)

David

David,

This might give you some insight into the other codes. This is a different AF/GF breaker product from Eaton, but probably has similar LED codes to the one you found.

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