Bernie
Great point Ed. I agree with what you say. Your post coupled with what Paul and I have said are close to the same thing. SS could put some thing together that would put it back on the map as a very viable system in the tool selling business. They need to stay away from the marketing suits and stick with the woodworkers. That is where the success is. We know how good the machine is. The key is to get the knowledge out to others in a way that would get them to buy one. Perhaps my idea of small offices with part time staffs that would be regionally based is a viable idea. Each regional store could have a small inventory that would allow for shipping and receiving of tools and repairs so that owners would not have to pay for transport back to Ohio.
I would like to see Hands On as a magazine again. Looking at it online just isn't the same. To be honest, I often forget about it all together when I look for ideas.
jerryjankura
One item that I haven't yet seen, reading through this thread, is helping ShopSmith establish price points that their equipment should sell at and then let ShopSmith figure out how they can manufacture a product to those price points.
Two days ago, we were around the Dayton area and decided to stop in at the outlet store. Much to our surprise, the doors were shuttered, the vans were parked next to the building, and there was a large "space available" sign on the front of the building.
Since we'd just been to their warehouse sale, this was quite a shock.
After coming home, I took a look at the web site to try to find out what was going on. While looking at ShopSmith's web site under "pricing," I found that the cheapest model that I could purchase cost three thousand dollars. That's quite a bit of money for someone to pay for one tool (granted it's multipurpose) if they're just getting into woodworking and don't really know if they're going to enjoy it. I've had my machine for over twenty years, have "upgraded" it to a 520 and enjoy working with it on nearly a weekly basis; still, I'd have to think two or three times if I had to purchase a replacement, as it would cost about thirty-six hundred bucks to replace what I currently use.
I wonder how many machines ShopSmith would sell if their "standard" product was priced around a thousand bucks. What would it take for ShopSmith to make a machine to sell at that price point?
-- Jerry J.
dusty
Jerry
I really like your concept. A $1000.00 starter model Mark V, Model xxx.
But I am unable to imagine what could be stripped from a basic Mark V, Model 510 (even a 500) that would allow the price to be dropped to a $1000.
That is about what a Mark V sold for at the Texas State Fair in 1995 after a special $600 reduction for the Fair Days.
I would like to purchase a car like my 1967 Plymouth Barracuda for the price that I paid then for a new car; $2600 with the SportsRally Package and upgraded interior with leather bucket seats, center console and tinted windows and racing strips. Incidently, I still have that car if someone wants to make an offer(minimum offer accepted $22,000).
jerryjankura
I'm not sure that a thousand bucks is the right price point for a model, but every time I've read through these types of discussions about ShopSmith, everyone seems to skirt around the product price issue, yet it's one that I don't think will go away.
I really hate to be the pessimist, as I've got a shop full of ShopSmith brand items ranging from a Mark-V-520, Sawsmith 2000, standalone planer (my first Shopsmith brand acquisition), jointer, strip sander, belt sander, bandsaw, scroll saw, and jointmatic which I use regularly. However, Dr. Phil's oft stated comment "You can't fix what you don't admit." holds true for Shopsmith.
charlese
jerryjankura wroteI'm not sure that a thousand bucks is the right price point for a model, but every time I've read through these types of discussions about ShopSmith, everyone seems to skirt around the product price issue, yet it's one that I don't think will go away.
I really hate to be the pessimist, as I've got a shop full of ShopSmith brand items ranging from a Mark-V-520, Sawsmith 2000, standalone planer (my first Shopsmith brand acquisition), jointer, strip sander, belt sander, bandsaw, scroll saw, and jointmatic which I use regularly. However, Dr. Phil's oft stated comment "You can't fix what you don't admit." holds true for Shopsmith.
Excellent post Jerry! Usually when a small company, like Shopsmith takes a loss of $700M with sales of $2 million - there is a major problem between manufacturing cost, inventory and selling price. Of course this means manufacturing costs must go down and selling price must go up at the same time keeping inventory low. These three things are what would hurt us - the Shopsmith users most. Many times quick fixes involve lay offs and down sizing. These last two fixes are only good for the
very short run. The big problems are the first three and they must be fixed to survive.
jcbrowne
Price is an issue to every one of us (read the opted purchases of members of this list of competitive brands) and most probably more so to any newcomer to the clan.
As I reflect on the accurate comments of Jerry and Charlese I cannot help but think of the days when I was the production manager of a manufacturing firm and was faced with a similar problem. My two cents worth to SS would be to re-evaluate true manufacturing costs in line with a projected sales plan.
Though I am a recent arrival to this brand and forum it is clear to me that the outstanding design behind Mark V is not a hasty hindsight but the result of a consistent and meticulously thought out process of innovations and upgrades of a basic configuration. Such was this well planned design process that the latest models are compatible with earlier models inasmuch as dimensions and interchangeability. The power headstock can have its motor changed or upgraded within its dimensional confines. Mounting ends, bench tubes and way tubes are all interchangeable, accessories fit older and newer models, in other words the hard core of the Mark V is so well designed that its design dimensions do not necessarily get outdated. Improvements of the basic design are enhancements not radical changes.
Having said this it would seem obvious to me that much of the hard core molds, machining templates and jigs are amortized to a very high degree (except for individual life expectancies which can be calculated realistically). Manufacturing tools must have been refined to reach an optimal point of efficiency and duplicity of each and every production stage.
If this is correct SS is not faced with complete overhauls of their production lines to ship ever changing new models to compete with their competitors. In fact they are their own competitor in this particular case.
I do believe that the simplicity of the inventory required to both manufacture and assemble new units would indicate that of the three crucial items to be considered: cost, inventory and selling price, the burden of SS's marketing outcome and market penetration would most probably be an issue of compatibility of the first two (cost and inventory) in determining the third (selling price) in line with a planned sales projection.
No doubt that SS prices can be lowered and might mean a transient downsizing and layoff of some personnel to make ends meet (something that has already happened) but unless the end result is an increase of sales these measures are of little or no value.
There is no doubt that there is an established loyalty to the brand that has permeated generations to date. But in a changing world where items like space and time are sought after and dreamed commodities unless there is a lure in the price the idea of longevity is no longer a factor in purchasing (other than to the older generation which extinguishes itself as time goes by).
I am sure that unless we are able to make SS accessible to a greater number of the consumer population we will be remembered as one of the best and long lasting machines ever built.
Shopsmith need not sacrifice its quality and spit out plastic expendables. It needs to be attune with market demands because it is through satisfying those demands will they be able to recoup the stature, reputability and recognition it one had.
This forum of loyal supporters is probably one of the best thermometers to take into consideration when planning marketing strategies. If the loyal who have already spent thousands nevertheless advocate for a price consideration and even state they opt for a competitive brand as their tool supplier in different cases, this must be taken very seriously. I would.
I greatly admire what I have but cannot be blind to reality. I can justify spending more for quality but the truth is that some of SS prices drive me to consider other options because of their disproportion. An accessory cannot cost more than a stand alone, at least not for me who no longer purchases machines for production and profit.
If I have a Mark V with accessories (planer, band saw, jointer, router table) it is because they came with the second hand unit I purchased and globally was justified. If I had to go out to purchase a new SS I could satisfy all my requirements with individual standalones and still pay less than I would for the basic Mark V.
edflorence
jerryjankura wrote
I wonder how many machines ShopSmith would sell if their "standard" product was priced around a thousand bucks. What would it take for ShopSmith to make a machine to sell at that price point?
-- Jerry J.
This thread has got me thinking…
I agree, the price of a new 510 comes with a hefty dose of sticker shock. But I think we can all agree that Shopsmith provides value for the money. Look at the customer satisfaction, the durability of the machine, its performance and its far-ranging capabilities. The SS gets high marks on all these good measures of value. So, the question becomes “is the price fair for the value received?”
In 1954, the basic unit, including motor, went for something like $200. According to the Consumer Price Index, in 2007 it takes 1,528 of today’s dollars to get the same spending power as those old ’54 dollars. If a new 510 comes in at $3,000 or so, then comparing apples to apples, a new 510 is really only twice as expensive as an original “greenie.” But the Consumer Price Index is a general average of purchasing power, and I suspect that skilled manufacturing labor rates have risen faster than the average, so giving SS the benefit of the doubt, let’s say that the 2007 price equivalent to the 1954 price would be something like $2,000. OK, we still have to justify that last $1,000. Are the larger motor, the enhanced table and fence system and the improvements to the drive system, the guards and the quill bearings, etc worth a $1,000? Personally, I think so. I guess everyone has to make up his own mind on that. I wonder sometimes if the price of a new 510 seems steep to the average SS owner because that owner (self included !) has no trouble remembering when first class postage was 6 cents, gas was 30 cents a gallon and a bottomless cup of coffee could be had for a quarter.
In my view, a bigger concern than the price of the new Shopsmith is that other social changes have conspired to erode its potential market. From the beginning, one of SS’s strongest selling points has been the compactness of its equipment. “Imagine”, a typical ad might say, “An entire woodshop that takes up no more space than a bicycle!” This was a great selling point for years and is what first induced many, including me, to build our shops around a Shopsmith. I still work out of a small space (11 x 22) with my Mark V and I like it that way. Small spaces are easier to heat and to clean and harder to lose things in! However, in 1950 the average American home was 983 square feet in size and these days the average is over 2300 square feet!! Over the same period of time the size of the average family has shrunk, with the net result that the average homeowner doesn’t face the same space limitations his father did. Nowadays, instead of having to tuck a SS into a corner of his little single car garage, Mr. Homeowner can set up shop in one of the 3 bays in his MacGarage. And he has, if he chooses, room for stand alones. Will he get the same value for his dollars? Probably not, unless he opts for higher end machines. Nonetheless, his spacious garage allows him the choice between SS and standalones. The challenge for Shopsmith is to convince somebody who is not pressed for space that the SS is still his best choice. I am not sure how you go about doing that.
Ed in Tampa
I think all of you know I tose quarters around like they were manhole covers. :o
But when I bought my SS 500 back in 84 time frame I could NOT buy the separate single purpose machines for the same price. I don't recall the exact numbers but I know I mathed it out every way to Sunday and proved the SS was my cheapest option.
Today I could easily outfit my shop for less than a SS 520 costs. Even more so if I did it based only on the the machine functions I use. If I add the special purpose machines such as bandsaw, jointer, biscuit jointer, and etc. I could still do if for less than just the cost of SS 520.
Hybrid saw $700 -$900
Drill press radial arm so it can bore horizontally $300
Lathe $800
12 inch disk sander $200
Add function like
Jointer 6 inch $400
Bandsaw 14" $400
biscuit jointer PC $200
Router/ Router table $350
Reversing shaper $350
I used higher end prices I could do it a lot cheaper using Sears or Harbor Freight tools.
edflorence
Ed-
First off, apologies for the error in my post. I of course meant to say 520 not 510 .
I agree that you can outfit a shop for less than a new SS costs. You probably always could if you were willing to make some of your own equipment, as many did back in the day of the recycled washing machine motor and the plywood bandsaw frame. Granted the frugal woodworker can pick from a wider array of much more satisfactory possibilities these days. The points I was trying to make are:
1) When you consider quality, access to parts, ease of maintenance, customer support, are you really buying equivalent value? I add up your stand alones (not counting the last three) and I come up with nearly 3 grand. Your are almost at the cost of the new SS and you have likely compromised on the quality, access to parts etc.
2) Stand alones take up a lot of room. this may not be an issue for professional shops and some owners of recently built homes, but often is an issue for many other folks. To get the versatility of the Shopsmith while taking up so little room is a value and has a dollar amount associated with it. In other words, for many of us its worth paying a little more to save space. For some people, it may be the only practical way they can squeeze a power tool shop into their lives.
As always, there is probably no perfect answer. One size will never fit all situations. To me, the SS still looks like it holds its own for folks who want a lot of machine in a little space.
Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505, bs, dc3300, jointer
jcbrowne
Edflorence,
I can understand you comments but the reality you mention is not true across the nation and less still abroad. At least not here in BC.
Economics force families to consider two incomes and smaller families in line with income budgets. Interest in woodworking might be still comparable to what we knew but the surplus available to spend on tools and machinery is meager compared to what was available decades ago. Limited resources mean stretching cash as much as possible (even if it means sacrificing quality) to be able to accomplish "something" today while they can. Most consider the purchase of a machine only as a means to save money and then list the remainders on Craig's List.
Younger generations already operate with enormous credit card debts which might take some their whole life to pay back. To place an additional 3000 balance on a credit card might be suicidal for some.
Those that can afford the luxury we have are mostly retired (with a canceled mortgage and a home mostly furnished) and empty nester's who now have some sort of surplus to play with. I am not considering trades who use these tools for work - they most of the times opt for one time use only tools so as not to freeze capital and do not care about longevity. [Example: if I have to cut lumber, why would I need a lathe?]
And should I agree with your concept of bigger and more spacious homes that does not mean there is also money available to fill that space with expensive machines.
Lets not forget that those of younger generations who could still be in a position to purchase machinery seem to be more interested in electronics.
One thing is true: solving marketing problems today is no easy task and whatever route one follows there will always be some dregs left on the roadside. But I am sure that SS can benefit from a multitude of opinions which might provide them with an inkling of what their loyal supporters believe.
jerryjankura
Ed from Idaho wrote:
1) When you consider quality, access to parts, ease of maintenance, customer support, are you really buying equivalent value? I add up your stand alones (not counting the last three) and I come up with nearly 3 grand. Your are almost at the cost of the new SS and you have likely compromised on the quality, access to parts etc.
My comments:
Unfortunately, we're preaching to the choir on this forum, which understands that ShopSmith offers a quality product and which already has a sizeable investment in ShopSmith brand tools. Unfortunately, it's the unbaptized multitude that is used to paying Wal*Mart prices for everything that comprises ShopSmith's new customer base - the folks who purchase the Mark-V and many of the SPT's. Folks like us who already have a well equipped ShopSmith shop are more of a low ticket replacement parts consumer.
The ShopSmith machine is a compromise as well. While it's unmatched as a drill press, it's use of a tilting table for its table saw mode renders it inferior (as a table saw) to most of the mid range table saws that use a tilting arbor. Metal tubes used as lathe ways render the that mode not as robust as a lathe with cast iron ways. We could go on comparing the ShopSmith to other woodworking tools, but the issue ShopSmith must grapple with and solve is that, by and large, the public who is interested in purchasing woodworking tools does not see the value in the ShopSmith tool; if they did, ShopSmith would be a growing company rather than one wilting on the vine.
One of these notes mentioned a loss of $700,000 on sales of 2 million; A year or two ago, I remember ShopSmith having sales of 3 million and just being slightly in the hole. So, we're seeing a situation where ShopSmith can't really increase their income by simply raising prices. If anything, those prices have to come down. But even then, they really can't guarantee that sales will increase enough to cover a reduction in price.
-- Jerry J.
dusty
A loss of $700,000 on sales of $2 Million has just been thrown into the discussion but no one bothered to mention where these numbers come from.
Frankly, without a source being stated, I am inclined to doubt the numbers and I believe others should too.
charlese
dusty wroteA loss of $700,000 on sales of $2 Million has just been thrown into the discussion but no one bothered to mention where ese numbers come from.
Frankly, without a source being stated, I am inclined to doubt the numbers and I believe others should too.
They are traded publicly
Whoops! They were public until recently- (SSMH). Past years' correct info is available on the net. I mis-stated their income as 2 million. That was quarterly income (ending November 2006) I should have said 12 million, but the net figure (-.7 mil) is O.K. in round figures.
Revenue in the quarter ending March 2005 was 13.4 million - Total net was a loss of 0.8 million. In March of '04 they netted 1 million. In '03 they netted 3 million. I think the '06 info is in the Dayton paper that was posted on this forum.
Here is December 9th 2005 news:
http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2005/12/05/daily30.html
Ed in Tampa
edflorence wroteEd-
First off, apologies for the error in my post. I of course meant to say 520 not 510 .
I agree that you can outfit a shop for less than a new SS costs. You probably always could if you were willing to make some of your own equipment, as many did back in the day of the recycled washing machine motor and the plywood bandsaw frame. Granted the frugal woodworker can pick from a wider array of much more satisfactory possibilities these days. The points I was trying to make are:
1) When you consider quality, access to parts, ease of maintenance, customer support, are you really buying equivalent value? I add up your stand alones (not counting the last three) and I come up with nearly 3 grand. Your are almost at the cost of the new SS and you have likely compromised on the quality, access to parts etc.
2) Stand alones take up a lot of room. this may not be an issue for professional shops and some owners of recently built homes, but often is an issue for many other folks. To get the versatility of the Shopsmith while taking up so little room is a value and has a dollar amount associated with it. In other words, for many of us its worth paying a little more to save space. For some people, it may be the only practical way they can squeeze a power tool shop into their lives.
As always, there is probably no perfect answer. One size will never fit all situations. To me, the SS still looks like it holds its own for folks who want a lot of machine in a little space.
Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505, bs, dc3300, jointer
Ed
You said when you tally up my last three you almost came to $3000.
Remember the Bandsaw and Jointer are additional cost items at SS also so the price to buy them with a 520 would be near $4000 so even at $3000 standalones are $1000 less.
Actually I don't think I compromised any quality or parts. In fact if I bought all Delta/Dewalt I would have a local factory parts/repair shop within 15 miles of my house. They stock all common maintaince parts.
The point I'm trying to make is when I bought my SS back in the 80's you couldn't buy the 5 basic tools nor a bandsaw nor a jointer for less than SS was selling theirs. Then when you considered SS excellent service, ready parts availability, quality, and space savings it became a no brainer. I even considered the compromise of tilting table and etc and still concluded it was the best deal around. Today you can fine (read this as very fine) high quality standalone equipment for a lot less money than SS is charging.
Just take the bandsaw. For $500 you can have a SS 11" driven by the SS or you can have a Rikon, Delta, Jet, or Grizzly 14" all with vac ports, motors ranging from 1hp-1/1/2hp, most have blade tension releases, some have roller bearing blade guides, most can be increased to 12" cut height, some come standard with fences, and mitre gauge slots.
All four have been recognized in some national magazine as outstanding in purpose. To me for the SS to compete in this field the price would have to be around $200-$300 or $200 dollars cheaper than it is. It has a 3" disadvantage, doesn't come with a motor, doesn't come with a stand, table is cast aluminum versus cast iron, wheels are aluminum versus cast iron in most of the cited machines. To me there is simply no competition and that is the problem. At one time SS was a very very strong competitor.
Ed
edflorence
Hi Ed-
Well, you do make a strong case. You are right, adding in the cost of the jointer and bandsaw SPT's does raise the final price.
I suppose we can take some pride in the American system, in that it seems to be working to make more goods, in this case power tools, available in a greater selection. A person just starting out to equip a shop has a lot of really nice machines to select from and, as you say, competition has seen to it that prices are relatively affordable.
And I admit that living where I do, which is pretty far from an urban area that might provide a service center for major tools, Shopsmith's customer service and prompt mail order mean more to me than they might to someone who lives near a large town. The closest cities to where I am are Spokane or Missoula and either way is over 100 miles. That makes mail order an attractive way to shop!
So, I guess that leaves just the question of shop space. And here I see Shopsmith as still the hands down winner. But in our "bigger is better" world, it may not be possible for Shopsmith to convince potential buyers that they will actually be happier in a smaller shop with a SS than they would be in big space filled with less expensive stand alones.
On a side note- you are correct in saying that the tilting table is a compromise. But, you know, other than the difficulty of rigging an outfeed table for cuts when the table is tilted (I use a roller stand) and the fairly unusual situation of having to put a compound miter on a stick more than 4 feet long, I have never found the tilting table to be a problem. Before the 1940's, as far as I am aware, all table saws were tilting table saws.
Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505 etc
dusty
edflorence;
Be just a bit patient. A tilting outfeed table will be posted here very shortly. I completed assembly of my prototype yesterday.
Pictures soon.
alancooke
jcbrowne wrote
Economics force families to consider two incomes and smaller families in line with income budgets. Interest in woodworking might be still comparable to what we knew but the surplus available to spend on tools and machinery is meager compared to what was available decades ago. Limited resources mean stretching cash as much as possible (even if it means sacrificing quality) to be able to accomplish "something" today while they can. Most consider the purchase of a machine only as a means to save money and then list the remainders on Craig's List.
Younger generations already operate with enormous credit card debts which might take some their whole life to pay back. To place an additional 3000 balance on a credit card might be suicidal for some.
Those that can afford the luxury we have are mostly retired (with a canceled mortgage and a home mostly furnished) and empty nester's who now have some sort of surplus to play with.
I hear this type of statement a lot, but to be honest, most young people today have grown up in an 'Instant Gratification America' and will usually find a way to buy what they REALLY WANT. If you doubt it, go to the nearest big lake and see how many retired people are riding around on 5K jet skis. We have a Honda plant here in Florence and they produce 1100 ATV's PER DAY!!!!!!! that have a starting retail somewhere around 4K. And that's just one maker! How about the price of high end bicycles? Shotguns for sporting clays?, etc. etc.
I don't remember who said/wrote it, but the quote goes like this: "create a product that satifies a need and you'll make a living; create a product that satisfies a want, and you'll make a fortune"
The money is out there, SS has to create the desire and that has to begin with exposure. I bought my SS at a large home show in Charlotte, NC but if I had not attended that show, I would still be clueless about SS.
I have been a woodworking hobbyist for nearly 20 years and can't recall ever seeing or hearing anything about SS until I purchased one.
I realize that the unique nature of SS poses some marketing challenges, but the definition of insanity is 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results'. I agree that the internet is one of the greatest new marketing channels, but how will 'SS challenged' potential buyers know it's on the internet?
This is a great forum.
Alan
Ed in Tampa
dusty wroteedflorence]
Dusty
I think is just one example of SS not understanding the market. Nothing frosts me more than having to adjust my outfeed table every time I raise or lower my blade height, tilt my table or move the carriage to better if for the wood or something. I would buy a outfeed table that adjusted with my table in a heart beat but they don't offer one.
If I was running Shopsmith I would have one of these on the market tomorrow at a price no SS owner could refuse and I offer one or two accessories that carried a good profit margin and I bet I could recoup my development costs in a short period of time.
As Alan said, "The money is out there, SS has to create the desire and that has to begin with exposure. I bought my SS at a large home show in Charlotte, NC but if I had not attended that show, I would still be clueless about SS."
The mney is there however Shopsmith appeals to a particular user group, you have to understand that group and cater to that group. You will never convince a dye in the wool cabinet saw owner to give up his saw to buy a SS. However there are other people that will buy a SS. Those SS buyers also want the accessories to go with the machine at prices they can afford and that make economic sense to them.
Ed
edflorence
I agree completely...I would very likely be one of the first purchasers of a "self adjusting" outfeed system if it would adapt to my 500.
Until then I will wait patiently for Dusty's pix!
Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505 etc
jerryjankura
I think is just one example of SS not understanding the market. Nothing frosts me more than having to adjust my outfeed table every time I raise or lower my blade height, tilt my table or move the carriage to better if for the wood or something. I would buy a outfeed table that adjusted with my table in a heart beat but they don't offer one.
If I was running Shopsmith I would have one of these on the market tomorrow at a price no SS owner could refuse and I offer one or two accessories that carried a good profit margin and I bet I could recoup my development costs in a short period of time.
I'll buy into that thought. I bought the "power lift" about a week after they had it on the market. We even drove down to Dayton to pick it up.
Question - besides the "self adjusting" outfeed table, what other attachments do you think would become "must haves"?
-- Jerry J.
