charlese
As long as we are participating in this forum (marketing survey) I might as well add two of the things I really don't (probably never will) understand.
The first is: "Why didn't Tarzan have a beard?"
The second is: Why doesn't Shopsmith have color adds in all major woodworking magazines?
According to posts in this forum, advertisers have benefits in several ways other than the first exposure because of the add. They get in on tool tests, get tool reviews, get pictures of editors using those tools to make projects. Simply I fail to understand how a potential buyer, or for that matter a purchaser of a used machine can know of the existence of Shopsmith and their services without advertising. Store and Fair demos evidently were not working well enough. No wonder! They only reached but a small fraction of the folks that magazine adds can!
It may be that Edward Rice Burrows never realized that men grow long facial hair if they never shave it.
It may be that Shopsmith has never realized or has completely disregarded the value of tens of thousands of men and women being aware of their product.
There is a mode in our brains (we all have it) called paradigms. You know; All Japanese stuff is junk; The best watches are made in Switzerland; One long held by the Ford Auto Company - People will buy this because they always have; A certain brand (because of it's name) is better.
All of the above are dead wrong! Maybe they used to be true, but no longer! After WWII all the Japanese stuff coming to the U.S. was tinny and not built to last. However what about now, with Japanese cars the largest sellers in the world! What about watches made in Japan? Some of the most accurate time pieces come from there. Paradigms have held researchers from finding a true result of their experiment, simply because of a paradigm. They just "Knew" what the expected results should be and what shouldn't be. The experimenters looked straight at the result and couldn't see it.
Yes, the same paradigms can exist within an entire organization. Ford, Chrysler, General Motors......etc.
How many paradigms does Shopsmith have about advertising?
Nick
I won't deny we have our paradigms here at Shopsmith, Chuck, but I also must affirm the existence of reasonably intelligent marketing analysis. Please read my comment in
https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=524. We have tried magazine ads; they don't work for the reasons I mention:
"...The reason is that our tools have to be demonstrated for the viewer to understand its uses. You can show a picture of router or a table saw and most woodworkers, even newbies, understand what it does. You don't have to educate the reader; you can jump right the benefits of the pictured machine, followed by the offer. The Shopsmith Mark V is such a unique approach to woodworking that it's uses are not immediately apparent. You have to demonstrate all five modes -- sawing, sanding, drilling, boring, turning -- just so the reader will begin to understand how to use it. This takes at least a page, and you haven't even gotten to the benefits, let alone the offer."
Actually, the Shopsmith brand is reasonably well-known in the woodworking world. And surprisingly, sales are brisk -- about 12,000 machines sell each year. The trouble is, most of these are used machines, some of them more than 50 years old. The community of woodworkers is shrinking for several reasons, not the least of which is the dearth of shop classes nationwide. Consequently, there is a glut of used woodworking machines, including Shopsmith Mark Vs. And since we manufacture the dang thing to last forever and have made it possible for you to upgrade even the oldest Mark Vs to a 520, what's the point of buying new? Our strongest competition is ourselves!
We are searching for a way out of this dilemna, and we are experimenting with several options, but rest assured the answer is not magazine advertisements.
With all good wishes,
Ed in Tampa
jerryjankura wrote
Question - besides the "self adjusting" outfeed table, what other attachments do you think would become "must haves"?
-- Jerry J.
Jerry
Power on and off switch that is relocatable and can be kneed in an emergency.
I would like a slidding sled that had kerf for the blade running through it so there was sled on both sides of the blade. One that was built with safety and exacting accuracy. One that used the latest t fence technology to allow hold downs, stop blocks and other jigs to be secured to it. Perhaps the kerf area could be replaceable.
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it.
I would be interested in a sharpening station with support arm like Jet and Tormek uses. Mounted on the SS with a speed reducer.
I would be very interested in a mortise/tendoning table that had xy and z axis movement similar to one David Marks uses on his show. The overhead Pin router is already there, if the support that holds the router would tilt to the horizontal plane.
I would be super interested in a DC motor Shopsmith.
Most of all I would like to see Shopsmith start pricing their Special Purpose Tools with the consideration that a stand and motor is not included.
chiroindixon
Power on and off switch that is relocatable and can be kneed in an emergency. Agreed. See the solution with pictures I posted on the first page of "StopSaw System" or the other forum, SSUG.org, under photos for "Shopsmith Safety Switch". Very easy and effective solution....I love it.
I would like a slidding sled that had kerf for the blade running through it so there was sled on both sides of the blade.etc,etc Watch WOODWORKS with David Marks. Very easy to build with all those features. Be sure to use/ buy the miter bars from SS. Better and safer than making your own.
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it. As a TA instructor once said, the increaser is a waste of time/money. These jobs are better left for a router with router table.
I would be super interested in a DC motor Shopsmith. Because?? Now they already do make a 220v version. Any advantage here that is overlooked?
Most of all I would like to see Shopsmith start pricing their Special Purpose Tools with the consideration that a stand and motor is not included. Ed, you lost me here. If you are inferring that once you add the extras to make that special tool work, you're right. Very pricey.....And some are just Rube Goldbergs', like the oscillating drum sander. I bought a new table top model with all the attachments for a lot less.
Just figured I'd chime in. Been quiet for months....
Doc
charlese
Nick wroteI won't deny we have our paradigms here at Shopsmith, Chuck, but I also must affirm the existence of reasonably intelligent marketing analysis. Please read my comment in
https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=524. We have tried magazine ads]
Nick, with all due respect, (and that's a lot! Ever since I first read your "
Woodworking Wisdom") I can't help but think you have just stated one beautiful example of a Shopsmith's paradigm, in the above quote. Including the URL.
Let's start over and think of a simple one page add. It shows four small pictures of Shopsmith in different modes (sanding, drilling, boring, turning) and one larger photo in the table saw mode (in use!). The wording in the add simply (and tersely as possible) tells what the different modes do. This simple wording will fit under the photos. It's probably a good thing to add the 6 sq ft. thing. The Most important feature of the add directs the reader to the Shopsmith.net site and the Shopsmith.com site.
I like yourself, and all the other users of this forum, believe the Internet may be "the salvation". But how do the unwashed become aware of the Internet at Shopsmith.net?
You just can't hang it out there for folks to stumble into!
With Magazine advertisement, Shopsmith can have more than just a jab (boxing terminology) You can give it a one two punch (internet) - and possibly three - if the viewer gets interested enough to buy
Gotta face it! The only way most, if not all of us found out about this forum is through Shopsmith advertising direct to SS owners only. And for me it was via E-mail
We are working (wanting) to find those folks owning used Shopsmiths and don't have
any information on assessories or repair parts. You know, "the guy down the block". Also, and maybe more importantly, we are looking for the guy/gal who saw a Shopsmith at a demo years ago.- has lusted for one since and now has the wherewithal to buy. We are also looking for the person that has a contractor table saw, but lacks room to put more machines. We are also looking for the folks that are thinking of getting into wood working and has picked up a "Wood" magazine off the stand because of an interesting cover. We need to hit those folks between the eyes with a knockout add that entices them to get more information about Shopsmith.
Nick
Chuck, and I say this with my tongue firmly in my cheek, did you ever think that maybe your paradigm is a misconception about the effectiveness of magazine ads?
With all good wishes,
Ed in Tampa
Power on and off switch that is relocatable and can be kneed in an emergency. Agreed. See the solution with pictures I posted on the first page of "StopSaw System" or the other forum, SSUG.org, under photos for "Shopsmith Safety Switch". Very easy and effective solution....I love it.
I think the work you did on your emergency power off switch is excellent. But I would rather have something mounted to the table with a big enough paddle that I could hit/lean against it and turn the unit off.
I would like a slidding sled that had kerf for the blade running through it so there was sled on both sides of the blade.etc,etc Watch WOODWORKS with David Marks. Very easy to build with all those features. Be sure to use/ buy the miter bars from SS. Better and safer than making your own.
I agree I can build my own. But I would love to see one that that has a lexan blade guard, replaceable blade kerf, had some aluminum or steel to conteract warping and bending, was deadly accurate. Something that would be hard for most of us to build.
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it. As a TA instructor once said, the increaser is a waste of time/money. These jobs are better left for a router with router table.
Agreed at the current speed the increaser is a waste. However increase the speed and put a gear train it there to allow reversing and the story becomes completely different
I would be super interested in a DC motor Shopsmith. Because?? Now they already do make a 220v version. Any advantage here that is overlooked?
DC motor are easily speed regulated, any speed zero to top speed, thus eliminating the need for all the speed mechanism. DC motors are easily reversable advantage is obvious. DC motors have high starting torque again the benefit is obvious. DC motor is lighter and with the elimination of the most of the mechanics the headstock would be greatly reduced in weight. Lastly new technology makes the DC motor concept nearly bullet proof, no more power sheaves to clean and lube, no poly belt to replace, no mechanical speed adjuster to replace missing teeth and broken pork chops, hard to turn dials and the temptation to turn the adjuster with the power off.
Most of all I would like to see Shopsmith start pricing their Special Purpose Tools with the consideration that a stand and motor is not included. Ed, you lost me here. If you are inferring that once you add the extras to make that special tool work, you're right. Very pricey.....And some are just Rube Goldbergs', like the oscillating drum sander. I bought a new table top model with all the attachments for a lot less.
By special purpose tools I mean things like the Bandsaw, jointer, planner, belt sander etc. All of these are priced almost identical to other manufactures stand alone units. However the SS doesn't have the expense of a motor, pulley's belts, and stands. To me the SS price to compete must be priced less. Take the Bandsaw for example and compare it to a Delta Bandsaw. The SS bandsaw without motor without a stand, without any belts or pulleys cost the same price as the Delta $499. The Delta is a 14 inch saw, has it's own motor pulleys and belts, has a cast iron table, a blade tensioner release, the capability of adding a riser block to increase throat height by 6 additional inches to total a little over 12. The Dlta comes with a built in dust port. All things the SS either charges extra for or simply can't be done.
Just figured I'd chime in. Been quiet for months....
I'm glad you chimed in! You asked good questions and provided me a opportunity to explain my statements.
Going back to the bandsaw. When I bought my SS bandsaw it cost about $350 and the cheapest Delta you could buy was about $700. With the exception of the motor and stand the two were similar although the Delta always did carry a size advantage. However SS even addressed that by providing slanted blade blocks that would allow you to crosscut a infinite length board provided with wasn't so wide to hit the riser. However over the years SS's bandsaw price has increased with normal inflation while Delta added features and took cost saving measures to actually bring it's price down. Today the two cost the same amount but in my book the Delta has it all over the SS in features and capacity. Today there are some "no name" bandsaws, which were reverse engineered off the Delta, that can be bought for a lot less than the SS.
Yes I know SS is premere equip and I appreciate that but it should also consider the competition. If SS can't manufacture a bandsaw without the motor, and stand, one that has less capacity than the competition for less than the competition SS then needs to take a different track.
How about beefing it up and make it the ultimate bandsaw. By beefing it up put in super heavy duty bearings, roller bearing blade guides, top flight wheels with perfected neoprene tires, perfectly balanced, easy open cover, and all the present accessories included. SS may be forced to charge even more than the current for this saw but at least it wouldn't take the backseat to the competition on features, quality and capabilities. In other words either cut costs so you are viable competition or become the Rolls Royce. SS can't continue to offer less and charge the same or more in some cases.
Just my opinions
Ed
chiroindixon
Ed,
Good to be back. After watching the antics with Putttn, I gave up for awhile. I do however read this forum about everyday.
First, that safety switch works far better than you think. Using your shin is much faster, and allows you to keep both hands on your work. ( or up safely away as need be) Plus, where is the table when you have your machine in "lathe" mode? Make one of these....you'll love it. ( Idea stolen from David Marks when he explained why this solution was better than a "paddle".) I had been using a dust collector floor switch previously, and I knew that was a bad idea.....
Sleds...I've made three with most of the features you want. Send me again your email address and I'll do my best to get the pictures to you. You can then chose to post them here if you like. Yes, they were a challenge to make, but a great learning experience. Another one of those missions you accept when you take up woodworking, the making of jigs and fixtures. Oh, and half the shop itself. A friend complemented me recently. Wasn't just the tool collection but the fact I did use the SS to build the wood racks, miter stand, extension tables, etc.
My professional woodworker friends are adamant about any "shaper" be of 3HP or better. My one friend just bought the most awesome specialized shaper to do solid wooden doors. What a horse! 5 to be exact. Trying to get a SS to do this is stretching too far.
Bandsaw price...I agree. Looked like Supershop sold the identical model for about half the price.
Doc
charlese
Nick wroteChuck, and I say this with my tongue firmly in my cheek, did you ever think that maybe your paradigm is a misconception about the effectiveness of magazine ads?
With all good wishes,
Yes, of course I have!
Just ask the folks at headquarters: How much would they pay out in order to sell 66,000 Mark Vs next year instead of 22,000 (most of them used)? No, I'm not going to order this many, but you can sell a lot more than 22,000 with your new, coming, Shopsmith.net. But there has to be a vehicle to
lead folks to the web site. Magazine adds seem to work for other woodworking machine manufacturers. e.g. "find it at Lowe's" placed in the add.
jerryjankura
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it. As a TA instructor once said, the increaser is a waste of time/money. These jobs are better left for a router with router table.
Agreed at the current speed the increaser is a waste. However increase the speed and put a gear train it there to allow reversing and the story becomes completely different
You wouldn't even have to add a gear train. If I recall correctly, the speed increaser is basically two wheels. One is connected to the headstock spindle and the other is turned 90 degrees and connected to the high speed spindle. All you have to do to reverse the new spindle is move the wheel down to the opposite side of the center of the wheel connected to the headstock spindle and you've reversed the high speed spindle.
alancooke
charlese wroteyou can sell a lot more than 22,000 with your new, coming, Shopsmith.net. But there has to be a vehicle to lead folks to the web site. Magazine adds seem to work for other woodworking machine manufacturers. e.g. "find it at Lowe's" placed in the add.
I agree with this point! I understand Nick's explanation of why magazine ads are not SS's primary sales tool, but I'm at a loss as to why it shouldn't be in the mix at least. Mag. ads may not convince people to buy always, but they at least build brand awareness and that can make the difference at decision time. People are hesitant to buy a brand they perceive (and perception is reality to most) to be 'fly by night' or 'on the fringe'.
Again, I have in mind reaching the new/occasional woodworker who has never heard of SS. A case in point is the e-mail recieved today from SS; "Woodworking Wisdom from Smitty". I'm already convinced!! and would venture to say that most people who recieved this e-mail are too. If I'm wrong, accept my humble apology, but I wonder how many non SS owners got that e-mail?
No criticism intended, I just hope that while 'chewing the hay and spitting out the stubble' of our comments, the SS people may find at least one helpful nuggett! I love my SS!!!!!! and want to make sure my son will still be able to enjoy it down the road.
Alan
Ed in Tampa
I think there is one hurdle we still haven't talked about. That is "Hands ON"! No not the magazine but the actual hands on time with the machine.
I don't know many people that would buy a $3000+ machine without at least touching it. I know I sure wouldn't.
There was an interesting discussion over in the Ridgid forum a while back. Apparently without Ridgid's knowledge or agreement Home Depot removed all the floor display models of Ridgid tools. I don't know if every store was removed or not because I think when Ridgid learned of the move they tried to stop it.
In any case the discussion was would you buy a Ridgid contractor saw or jointer just by looking at a picture on a sign in the store. Most agreed they wouldn't. Ridgid still has an advantage over SS, in that HD stocks the machine and you can take it home today. Plus if you want to return it you simply drive back with the machine.
Now think about SS first you have to order without really seeing the machine. Then you have to wait until is shipped to you, including all the games of getting it out of truck and where you want it. Then if you decide it is not for you having to pack and ship it back.
To me this seems to be a huge stumbling block in SS marketing. While the Demo's really never allowed you to test drive the machine. They were slick enough to convince you the machine did everything to perfection and all you needed to so was buy one. That aspect of SS selling seems to be one they got rid of.
As for magazine advertising I think that opens a door for negative advertising also. Ask any old grizzled woodworker about a SS and the answer is almost always, "don't mess with that thing get yourself a real saw."
I had a friend that almost frothed at the mouth at the mention of SS yet he never used one. Since we lived several states apart it took awhile for him to actually visit to see my SS. Again he was very negative. However the last time he was here I was working on the SS and frankly he was impressed. I don't know but I wouldn't be surprised to see him own one some day. Mention SS to nearly anyone and the first thing they say is it is lousy saw but when you try to nail them down and have them tell you what in particular they didn't like you find they never used a SS.
I think magazine advertising may get people talking but it might be negative talking.
Ed
fjimp
Ed,
I have been in sales most of my life. I learned many years ago that advertising is both a curse and a necessity. Many people in my line of work shun the whole idea of advertising. I buy small giveway items, Calendars, Pens, Letter openers. I also do yellow page, magazine and local newspaper adds. I have been known to have booths at county fairs, business expos and a variety of consumer shows. I have never found a truly bad or the perfect ad. I do know that it takes all kind of ad's to keep my name in front of my prospects. I track what makes prospects buyers. The answers are seldom the same except that many people say I see your name everywhere. Jim
toolpig
Nick, don't wait to get invited to the party! The companies that get their products reviewed in these woodworking magazines also ADVERTISE in these magazines. Shopsmith has been invisible for years. The only people who see your website and e-newsletters are people who already own Shopsmith products. I never see Shopsmith ads in these magazines. You're "preaching to the choir." Spend some money on marketing and you'll sell more machines!
Just my $.02.
TP
Nick wroteOne of the most valuable things you can do, Ed, is to lean on the editors of those woodworking magazines to which you subscribe. Whenever they compare power tools, we are ALWAYS left out. To a certain extent, I can understand this -- the Mark V is a hard tool to classify. You really can't compare it to stand-alone power table saws and disc sanders.
On the other hand, we do manufacture some very good stand-alone tools. Our pro-planer, scrollsaw, and belt sander are second to none -- they would do extremely well in an honest comparison. The overhead router, if it were tested toe-to-toe with commercial router tables, would run away with the field. Many professional carvers use our strip sander with the sharpening attachment and swear it's the best sharpening system on the market. Yet we can't get most editors to consider us at all. The excuse is that all our tools, because they are designed to be mounted on the Mark V, are part of a unique, proprietary system. It seems to make no difference that they all can be mounted on their own stand with their own motor. Not only can't we get anybody to ask us to dance, we're never invited to the party.
Next time you see Shopsmith is left out of a tool comparison, complain to the editor AND his publisher. Believe me, that will get their attention. And maybe we'll get a few invitations.
With all good wishes,
ryanbp01
I guess I have been visiting on another planet because: 1) I did not know about Shopsmith having financial problems, and 2) I have not experienced any problems in ordering items. Last night I was in my local Woodcraft store to pick up some woodworking supplies. I was told by a couple of employees that Shopsmith has closed the store at the factory in Dayton. Please say its not the case! I like to stop in when I'm in the area and see what they have on hand. While I may not be a big time purchaser, I always found one or two things I could pick up for my Shopsmith. If someone would either confirm or deny this information, it would be greatly appreciated.
Shopsmith used to do a great job when it came to announcing when they would be in our area. When I was younger and had no money, I always saw Shopsmith ads in Popular Mechanics and other publications. I sent the postcards in and would receive information on the Mark V. When Shopsmith came to our annual Home and Garden Show and put on a demonstration, my wife would have to pull me away from the demo to look at the other exhibits. It was always nice the Shopsmith gave away something for visitors watching the demo. The last time Shopsmith came to the Fort Wayne area for the Home and Garden Show, I purchased the fiftieth anniversary verision of the 520, along with the caster package and the lathe package. My wife said she thought I was going to do that when I retired. My response to her was that life is too short, I might be dead by then, etc.(nothing like a little philosophy mixed in with a helping of guilt to make a point) and that I wanted to get started with then, not later. I have since made purchases from Shopsmith on a steady basis, as my purchase record would attest. I have not seen a demonstration in my area since then. The local Lowes no longer offer the Mark V or have demos. There was no Shopsmith demos at the Indiana State Fair either last year or the previous three years. I don't know about this year since I didn't attend. At our earlier Home and Garden Show last March I was really looking forward to going because SHOPSMITH WAS GOING TO BE THERE! I was severely disappointed that no one from Shopsmith showed up. I was so unhappy I took the time to call Shopsmith and was told the representative could not make it due to some vehicle problems.
Here's the point: Shopsmith needs to do more marketing and get back to basics when it comes to the Mark V. Hire demonstrators to show the versatility of the machine and pay them a salary. Advertise in magazine like Family Handyman, Wood, Workbench, as well as similar publications. Get more Traveling Academies scheduled. In other words, GET THIS SHOW BACK ON THE ROAD. While I get the e-mail specials and other notifications as a Shopsmith owner, I still like to go to view the demos and see some of the the machine in operation. As a matter of fact, when I purchased my machine, there was an older gentleman who advised me to do it then, and that I would not regret the decision. Shopmith needs to do more than just relying on the internet to get its message out. Nothing is better than the personable approach. It takes money to make money. While I am on the soapbox, I hope that the President, Chairman, and Nick Engler take the time to read this and that maybe, just maybe, we will all hear and read more form Shopsmith in the future.
Blane P. Ryan
fjimp
I remember early in my insurance carreer hearing most agents comment they found advertising a waste of money. In that I suffer from being unable to follow directions I decided to advertise. Local print publications certainly kept my name in front of folks. It was the Yellow Pages that made the biggest local impact. In the last few year I am realizing a combination of my web site and print advertising pay the biggest dividends. As the years passed I increased the size of my ads. Recently I have made the ads smaller and find I have hit on a combination that is working well. I have no need or interest in bragging yet clearly realize that "advertising Pays Off big time." I agree that Shopsmith would do well to advertise in the magazines that folks interesting in tools read. I also believe that a web site pro could make their web site more friendly. Jim
reible
reible wrotePlease if we can keep the postings to things WE can do and comments about that...... giving advice to shopsmith unless they ask for it will most likely result with little success no mater how good it is. By the way feel free to start a thread on advice for shopsmith if you wish.
To add on to Nicks idea... when was the last time you saw a shop project where a shopsmith was pictured and used for the project in one of the woodworking magazines?? How about someone upgrading the 500 to a 510 or 520..... someone restoring an older machine or how about someone showing a tune-up of a shopsmith.
I have no idea how many shopsmith machines are out there but one would think a magazine might be interested in some submissions.... especial if they got some email asking for some shopsmith coverage???
Heck even I would mind getting published....... how about you?
Ed
This thread is getting off subject again. Please no more advice for shopsmith here....... start your own thread for that if you like, just as I said before.
Ed
dusty
was the original theme of this thread.
Has the thread really been high jacked??? I don't think so.
reible
dusty wrotewas the original theme of this thread.
Has the thread really been high jacked??? I don't think so.
It has been hi-jacked six ways from Sunday.
Now I don't care much for that and worse yet I find I sometimes add to the problem. Since I started the thread and explained what I was interested in seeing posted in this thread I can tell you about 80% of the content is not on the subject. I'm not saying it isn't worth posting but it is not in the theme of the heading/thread.
If someone new comes to the forum to find information of interest to them and uses the titles of the post they will miss out on many interesting posts that are hi-jacked in amoung threads. So they may miss out thinking they are interested in by not reading all the posts and they may not have the time or energy to read them all. The contents may have a lot to offer but it needs to be in a new thread.
Now it just about makes it required to read each and every post as the thread title doesn't even hint at what must be inside. I for one try to read almost every post here and in my humble opinion if this is getting to be too much for me then it is for others also...
It is especial bad when you get back after a couple of weeks and see all the posts you have to try and read... In that case I have to pick ones on subjects which interest me and have no idea what I might be missing in mis-threaded posts. If you don't believe me take two weeks off from the forum and then come back and you get a new perspective.
On a small board I can deal with it but it has got so busy here that I can't anymore. Maybe its time for me to move on, I don't know much else to do as I'm not enjoying the forum like I once did.
So I'm thinking maybe the best thing I can do for shopsmith is to....
Ed
fjimp
Ed,
My apologies. Frustrating you is not my desire. Enjoy your discussion. Jim
