charlese
reible wrote
If someone new comes to the forum to find information of interest to them and uses the titles of the post they will miss out on many interesting posts that are hi-jacked in amoung threads. So they may miss out thinking they are interested in by not reading all the posts and they may not have the time or energy to read them all. The contents may have a lot to offer but it needs to be in a new thread.
On a small board I can deal with it but it has got so busy here that I can't anymore. Maybe its time for me to move on, I don't know much else to do as I'm not enjoying the forum like I once did.
So I'm thinking maybe the best thing I can do for shopsmith is to....
Ed
Hey Ed - I always find it informative too read your postings. I'm glad you got back - and jumped into the Forum. I can understand the frustrations of trying to read every sentence of every posting. Yes sometimes the subject under discussion wanders away from the title of the Thread, BUT - somewhere something was written to lead us there. That -in part is the value of this free and almost un-censored Forum.
Shopsmith is working on making additional Forum Headings so we may be able to stay on point somewhat better. My personal thoughts are this will help us stay on subject only slightly. However there has been quite a bit of viewer's input into "Administration's" request for new Forum subjects.
I feel privileged to be able to participate in a forum like this - BUT at the same time - I have to realize there is a whole life going on outside of this forum. I relish reading the viewpoints and comments of others - no matter where they appear. No - I can't read every sentence, but that's O.K. - I no longer try to participate on everything in this huge (but shrinking) World.
Keep up the "ol' try", Ed! We love reading your stuff!
dusty
This is definitely off subject but here is another approach:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org
Just try to stay on track there.
toolpig
For better or worse, we're living in a "global economy."
Most every other power tool manufacturer is moving or has moved its manufacturing operations overseas or to Mexico. They did this to become more profitable and, by and large, it has worked. I can't comment on whether this has sacrificed quality, as I'm only in my 30's and all of my power tools were made someplace other than the U.S. But I have no complaints, as I always do my homework and buy the very best that I can afford. All of my power tools perform well and will probably outlast me.
TP
jerryjankura wroteEd from Idaho wrote:
1) When you consider quality, access to parts, ease of maintenance, customer support, are you really buying equivalent value? I add up your stand alones (not counting the last three) and I come up with nearly 3 grand. Your are almost at the cost of the new SS and you have likely compromised on the quality, access to parts etc.
My comments:
Unfortunately, we're preaching to the choir on this forum, which understands that ShopSmith offers a quality product and which already has a sizeable investment in ShopSmith brand tools. Unfortunately, it's the unbaptized multitude that is used to paying Wal*Mart prices for everything that comprises ShopSmith's new customer base - the folks who purchase the Mark-V and many of the SPT's. Folks like us who already have a well equipped ShopSmith shop are more of a low ticket replacement parts consumer.
The ShopSmith machine is a compromise as well. While it's unmatched as a drill press, it's use of a tilting table for its table saw mode renders it inferior (as a table saw) to most of the mid range table saws that use a tilting arbor. Metal tubes used as lathe ways render the that mode not as robust as a lathe with cast iron ways. We could go on comparing the ShopSmith to other woodworking tools, but the issue ShopSmith must grapple with and solve is that, by and large, the public who is interested in purchasing woodworking tools does not see the value in the ShopSmith tool]
a1gutterman
Firstly, I must say that I make every effort to purchase products that are USA made. That is true even if I have to pay a little more. The fact that people buy the cheaper foriegn made products is understandable though. What they do not understand is that they are perpetuating the problem of keeping good paying jobs here in this country. As toolpig pointed out, most companies have moved their manufacturing out of country. What are all of those misplaced workers doing now? Working at Wal Mart or McDonalds? This is a very complicated and emotionally charged subject and I will definitly receive opposing views and will probably make some enemies here, but I believe that most of the problems that face us have been brought about by UNIOINS. I know that unions have done many good things for the workers of our country, but, and this is a big but, for the last number of years and even now, they are putting the American workers out of work. I am not anti-union and appreciate the good things that they have done and still do today, but they go too far. I do not want to be long winded here, so I am not going to express all of the things that I believe, but here are a few things to think about:
How can a person working at Wal Mart at $12 per hour be expected to buy a car made by workers that earn in excess of $100 per hour?
What are the unions doing for former workers of the manufacturers that have moved overseas?
How many union workers buy only union made products?
How many American auto workers drive other than American made cars?
How many companies have told their union employees that if they vote for the extravagant wages and benefits, their jobs would have to be outsourced and they would be out of work, and yet that is exactly what the unions succeeded in convincing their members to do?
Checker Car simply shut it's doors.
Boeing should call itself the American Design and Assembly Company.
How many American tool companies still manufacture in this country?
We can still have unions; they are NEEDED to keep in check companies that take over advantage of the worker. They, in turn, need to be controlled somehow, so that they do not continue to put the American worker out of work with their own zealousness.
I go out of my way to buy American.
I buy union made products.
I have owned 11 cars and trucks, 7 used, 4 new, all of which have been American made.
My 2007 Impala has a sticker on it that states it is 95% American made and that the engine is 100% American made.
I buy American made appliances.
I buy American made tools.
The small John Deer tractors are made in the Japanese Janmar factory.
Many parts of the small Kubota tractors are made in the USA.
I own a Kubota.
I buy American made shoes, and that is not easy!
I buy foriegn made products only when there is not an American solution.
toolpig is helping move American manufacturing jobs out of the country by buying foriegn made products. The Domino Effect of his self-proclaimed actions will effect all of us eventually. This is not an attack on toolpig; who among us is not guilty of the same action? It has already effected many of us. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Okay, I am done venting, but I do want to point out one more thing: Not ALL of SS products are made in the USA.
dusty
Other than being loyal Shopsmith customers who openly proclaim our satisfaction with Shopsmith and Shopsmith products, I don't know what we can do to help Shopsmith.
Shopsmith does not outright ask for our help. Therefore, it is nearly impossible for us to do anything to help - except, as I said, remain loyal and exuberant customers.
It has been said that we should buy American made. It would sure be interesting to see a list of the major manufacturers of woodworking equipment and where their headquarters and factories are located and where they buy their raw materials and assembled parts.
Shopsmith .....................Makita
Festool .........................Black and Decker
Delta ............................DeWalt
Incra ............................Bosch
Porter Cable ...................Freud
Stanley .........................Hawk
Jet ...............................Hitachi
Grizzley .........................Clayton
Makita ...........................Powermatic
Forrest ..........................Performax
Rockwell ........................Beisemeyer
Take an inventory of your shop and see for yourself. Do you buy "American Made"? If I am wrong, jump on this. Set me straight.
So far we have only highlighted power tool manufacturers. If we are going to start a campaign we need to add wood, glues, fasteners, finishes, handtools and many more. We don't buy American Made because America has quite making much of what we buy.
They can't afford to manufacturer American Made products because of the high labor costs. The labor costs would force selling prices that are totally out of reach. Thirty, forty, fifty, sixty dollar an hour jobs result in $4000 table saws.
I'm happy with my Shopsmith and the price I paid and am paying. I would like to have a 12" table saw of comparable quality, made in the USA for a price I can afford. But I don't think there is one! Therefore, I shall remain a content Shopsmith user.
john
I guess Ed was right, this site has been highjacked. However let me put in my 2 cents on the latest rant.
First a little story: Several years ago during one of my frequent visits to Burlington, Vt., a sales clerk asked if he could help me. I responded that "he could if he had had some U.S. made goods. When in the U.S., I try to buy U.S. made goods and while at home I try to buy Canadian made goods. Since he only had offshore made goods, I could buy the same the same things at home, so no he could not help me."
Unfortunatley as stated here buying locally made goods of any kind is increasingly more difficult, but in my opinion, we have only ourselves to blame. Many years ago when the company I worked for was closing yet another manufacturing plant due to foreign competition, I observed that we want to earn high North American salaries so that we could buy lots of cheap Japanese goods (this was obviously long before China became dominant). Well we are paying the price for that today.
Now back to Ed's topic, "how can WE help Shopsmith?" I think he cover it in only two sentences. Buy more SS products and promote the name. We can't do much more than that which is why I presume many have branched out to suggest how Shopsmith can help themselves and attract New users.
Well that's my rant for today!
Happy woodwrking!
John
dusty
How about helping by registering for and participating in the Hands Online Classes. Woodworking classes right in our own home.
I have attached the Class Schedule for your reference. Call customer service to register.
http://www.shopsmithacademy.com/Class_schedule.htm
Ed in Tampa
a1gutterman wroteFirstly, I must say that I make every effort to purchase products that are USA made. That is true even if I have to pay a little more. The fact that people buy the cheaper foriegn made products is understandable though. What they do not understand is that they are perpetuating the problem of keeping good paying jobs here in this country. As toolpig pointed out, most companies have moved their manufacturing out of country. What are all of those misplaced workers doing now? Working at Wal Mart or McDonalds? This is a very complicated and emotionally charged subject and I will definitly receive opposing views and will probably make some enemies here, but I believe that most of the problems that face us have been brought about by UNIOINS. I know that unions have done many good things for the workers of our country, but, and this is a big but, for the last number of years and even now, they are putting the American workers out of work. I am not anti-union and appreciate the good things that they have done and still do today, but they go too far. I do not want to be long winded here, so I am not going to express all of the things that I believe, but here are a few things to think about:
How can a person working at Wal Mart at $12 per hour be expected to buy a car made by workers that earn in excess of $100 per hour?
What are the unions doing for former workers of the manufacturers that have moved overseas?
How many union workers buy only union made products?
How many American auto workers drive other than American made cars?
How many companies have told their union employees that if they vote for the extravagant wages and benefits, their jobs would have to be outsourced and they would be out of work, and yet that is exactly what the unions succeeded in convincing their members to do?
Checker Car simply shut it's doors.
Boeing should call itself the American Design and Assembly Company.
How many American tool companies still manufacture in this country?
We can still have unions]I buy foriegn made products only when there is not an American solution.[/B]
toolpig is helping move American manufacturing jobs out of the country by buying foriegn made products. The Domino Effect of his self-proclaimed actions will effect all of us eventually. This is not an attack on toolpig; who among us is not guilty of the same action? It has already effected many of us. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Okay, I am done venting, but I do want to point out one more thing: Not ALL of SS products are made in the USA.
Tim
I'm not a fan of unions also but the problem is not unions nor is the company the problem. The problem is HUMAN GREED. As someone else stated American workers demanded huge salaries so they could buy tons of Japanese goods made by workers making far less. Now Japanese workers are demanding high salaries so they can buy Korean goods made by workers making far less.
However I do have a fear and I think it is a very real fear. This idea of buying from China is NUTS. China is a declared enemy, they wants us in subjection to them. Yet we are sending billions of US dollars to them by buying goods from them. Are they using it to improve living conditions in the country yes to a small degree but mostly it is used to fund their millitary. If there is anything I can do to avoid buying a product made I China I will. I don't want to give them the dollar to buy the bullet to shoot me.
Ed
al_killian
One thing that has left a sour taste in my mouth abot Shop Smith is there not stocking parts for older items. I own a Mark V 500 and a 18" Magna jigsaw, When I tried to order parts for it they told me they stop ordering parts for it the day the new model came out.:confused: This oneway to either force pepole to buy new or switch brands. I for one cannot afford new and find it poor service. Delta for example carries parts all the way pack to the rockwell day.
Nick
"...not stocking parts for older items."
I don't know who gave you this information, Al, but it's just not true. We stock many parts for older items and we have carefully managed the designs of our new Mark Vs so you can upgrade without having to buy a brand new machine. Yes, we stop making parts for older machines that are no longer part of our line, such as the old Magna jigsaw. But this is a necessary practice amongst manufacturers; keeping and replenishing an inventory for everything manufactured in the last century is financial suicide.
As far as Rockwell/Delta goes, my counterpart here at the Academy, Drew, has a '60s vintage Rockwell jointer. He can't get new parts for it other than standard-size bearings. But you can get a new fence, cutterhead, infeed table, outfeed table, what have you for your '50s and '60s Magna jointer here at Shopsmith. Furthermore, you can upgrade it with a fence extension and featherboard/guard. I doubt Delta can match that.
With all good wishes,
reible
Just a few thoughts for you.
This tread is the 5th most viewed one in the forum. When I just looked the top two were in the tool review area the third in the general area then back to the review area then comes this thread.
Now if we look at replies it is now number 2, only a posting in tool review area has it beat.
So how would you rate this thread? If you can figure out how to do it go give it a rating and if you wish explain why you gave it the rating you did... we are only 20 replies short of being number one! All of those additional post will then translate in to move views and before long this thread can have the most views too.
Ed
ryanbp01
I really have enjoyed reading and participating in this discussion. I do not believe there are any people more devoted to their machines than Shopsmith owners! I love the product and the concept of having a machine that truly "does it all". I have owned other table saws over the years and the Shopsmith leaves them far, far behind. I believe all of the comments made here have had something valuable within them. We all want to see Shopsmith not just survive, but thrive. So what if someone gives advice: maybe there is something good that will come out of it. It is my belief this thread is #1 on the thoughts of many owners. Contrary to what some may think, I do not think this thread has been hijacked. I prefer to think that owners are concerned and want to offer their help and give advice, no matter what their perception is. After all, one definition of truth is what our perception of reality is.
BPR
reible
Do you have a plan if shopsmith doesn't make it?
Will you sell off yours and get another brand(s) equipment?
Keep it, but just waiting for the prices on ebay to go up enough to make some extra money?
Try to collect every thing you can find on ebay to keep yours running?
Figure the world is not going to stop rotating and not even worry about it?
Just wondering what thoughts you are having.
Ed
reible
Say you win a dream shop give-a-way. You can buy any tools you want and you have $20,000.00 to spend. At the sametime a small plane crashes into your shop and all of your shopsmith gear is gone... hey it could happen....
So you have a clean slate shop wise, what do you buy? All the shopsmith things $20K will buy? Try to replace the things you had which might have been a mix from several companies??
Any thoughts?
Ed
reible
Say we here that shopsmith is closing it doors in January.
What things would you try to purchase before that happens?
Repair parts, add ons, major upgrades, bandsaws, jointers, planners, stand alone accessories???
Get the rest of the stuff on your wish list???
Ed
reible
Let's say we hear that shopsmith has been sold to a far eastern tool company. The new name is shopsmith of india.
Now would you keep your shopsmith or sell it?
How would you feel about ordering parts or add ons?
Oh yes the customer service is also in india... how would that make you feel?
Hey, no problems with any of this??
Ed
reible
I was looking at the number of members we have, give or take a few the number now is 2600. We are lead to believe that the number of machines are in the millions, that what was it 12,000 exchange hands each year now. We know that wood workers are able to use computers... at least some of us anyway....
So how come after more then a year we still have only 2600 people signed up? Look at all the good information they are missing out on! Even if we add in the numbers from ssug.org and the yahoo shopsmith membership we are still just a drop in the bucket compared to the number of owners.
So what are your thougths
Ed
reible
Ring ring. Hello. Hello, this is "public shopsmith" calling, we have decided to make some major changes in our company. We are becoming a not-for-profit company, we will continue to pay our staff, continue selling our product but will not make profits for anyone. In order to do this we need you to dig into your pocket this year for a $100 donation. How ever if you can afford $500 we will send you a free DVD. At the $1000 level we will have the DVD signed by Nick. We will only make these calls 4 times a year, those donating at least $50 will only be called once a year. Let me be the first to welcome you to "public shopsmith".
Now how much are you will to donate?
Hello?
Hello?
click mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
So what do you think about this idea?
Ed
charlese
reible wroteI
So how come after more then a year we still have only 2600 people signed up? Look at all the good information they are missing out on! Even if we add in the numbers from ssug.org and the yahoo shopsmith membership we are still just a drop in the bucket compared to the number of owners.
So what are your thougths
Ed
A lot of Shopsmith owners are not computer owners! Although I have uses computers since the 1980s, and although we have had a computer in our home since the mid 1990s. I didn't have the time or inclination to have my own computer until last year.
Also, my thoughts include - I feel the ssug and yahoo groups are not easy for me to use. I'd actually have to use my brain to figure out the procedures to use them. - therefore they do not attract me.
This forum in very intuitive.
reible
charlese wroteA lot of Shopsmith owners are not computer owners! Although I have uses computers since the 1980s, and although we have had a computer in our home since the mid 1990s. I didn't have the time or inclination to have my own computer until last year.
Also, my thoughts include - I feel the ssug and yahoo groups are not easy for me to use. I'd actually have to use my brain to figure out the procedures to use them. - therefore they do not attract me.
This forum in very intuitive.
Well you could be right about some of them not having computers but from the numbers I've seen we are still missing a few that do. "Sixty-two million U.S. households, or 55 percent of American homes, had a Web-connected computer in 2003, according to just-released U.S. Census data." Now that was 4 years ago so the numbers are bound to be much higher now.
Now some of us have had a long history using computers... even in highschool in the advanced math class we did Fortran coding forms then had them sent out for punch cards then sent out again to get run on a computer... several week process if it worked, longer if you did something wrong. When I went to work at a major communications company we did the same sort of things except it was done all in house... so who remembers chad? We had a lot of fun with that stuff. Oh yes then the teletype machines and the accostic coupled modems at 150 baud.... Then the early ibm pc with dual floppies and 640 Mb of memory and the Commodore Vic 20... ah the good old days. Well enough of that.
So granted a few people have computers but don't know how to use them but still....
Ed
