A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

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RFGuy
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by RFGuy »

Thanks for all of the feedback. Okay, I think I made some progress today. My main table is square to the MasterPlate (checked with both my Woodpeckers 1281 square and Wixey digital angle gauge), so I am fairly sure the different measurements vs. height before are not due to a lack of 90°. What I did come to a conclusion on is that the straw trick that Ed recommended isn't working as well in my shop unfortunately. :( Going back and looking at the picture that Ed posted it looks like the straw he used is probably a larger diameter than the ones I use in my shop for cleaning up glue runout, etc. Using the straw and iterating many times I observed the SawGauge 1.0 inadvertently moving and affecting the measurement so the straw is affecting my measurements. I even saw the straw deform a bit at times, so I think even the straw wall thickness is likely a factor affecting the measurement too. So, I remembered that I had some steel 1/4" x 1" dowels in the shop that I bought for a project but never used. Using this instead of the straw yielded much more consistent AND lower measurements than before. :)

With connector tubes installed and locked to the aux table, I get +0.003" at the back of the MasterPlate and -0.001" at the front with 0.0 at center. This was for the right miter slot which is the only slot I ever use.

For the left slot, I get +0.002" at the back of the MasterPlate and 0.0 at the front with 0.0 at center.

I gave up on measurements without the connector tubes installed because I couldn't get repeatable results, i.e. it changes every time. Almost seems like you can sneeze on the main table and the dial indicator will deviate 0.003 or more. Not looking to do an alignment just yet given these measurements, but at least now I know that I can get some use out of my Woodpeckers SawGauge 1.0 with this workaround. If I hadn't already bought it, I would seriously consider getting the MagSwitch Saw Indicator (https://magswitch.com/product/universal-saw-indicator/) or copying Dusty's bearing solution.
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📶RF Guy

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reible
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by reible »

Perhaps I didn't make it clear, I only use the straw to get the rods positioned. Once the top bar is in place I can let it set there but for measurements I apply a nice firm pressure then slide it into place and take a reading, then move on keeping the firm pressure in place.

Your idea is fine so long as the contact is to the two side bars and not the top bar. If the spacer is contacted the top bar then all bets are off.

Now looking at your results I see no reason to do any adjusting unless you want the learning experience. Any yes it is fluctuation with any significant touching of the table, so yes that is what I see too. A few thousands sure isn't a lot but still worth getting right. If you watched the video I linked to you can see that he was not happy at .007" and ended up with about .0025 or so.

Anyway it has been interesting revisiting all of this again. BTW those angle gauges are OK for general use but I would not depend on them for really getting things to 90 degrees. I have two of them and they can often read two different things so.... beware.

Ed
{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]
RFGuy
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by RFGuy »

Ed,

Thanks. I just tried it again with removing the straw afterwards and keeping some downward pressure. It just doesn't work for me on my table. Any lateral movement (front to back) in moving the Saw Gauge 1.0 will cause the rods to fall into the bottom of the miter slot. The problem is that the Shopsmith miter slot isn't flat on the bottom. I am thinking of another solution to fix it now which is if I can make a falt, rectangular shim to fit in the trough in the bottom of the miter slot - essentially creating a flat bottom of the miter slot. Doing so I think would work the best because then the geometry of the SawGuide 1.0 mounts should then follow the slot with less variation from the rods wanting to fall into that recess. No straw or steel dowel would be needed then. Anyway, I feel a lot better now because I can use this expensive tool as intended now thanks to your help.

Yeah, I have seen those table saw setup videos from Marc before and I remember him chasing alignment in them and then later questioning if it was too much.

I agree on the Wixey gauges, but they get me close. The problem that I have is as follows. I have several good quality squares in my shop but I find it hard to always see the gaps between the square and the fence. Presbyopia has set in, so I use magnifiers in the shop to get up close and often I shine a light from behind the square so that I can see any gaps. Still, it is difficult to guarantee a square fence using this method. One solution would be to get feeler gauges out to check for gaps between the square and the fence, but I guess I am too lazy. With the Wixey angle gauge I can get within 0.1 or 0.2 degrees typically which I generally accept and it is fast. Sooooo, if you know a hack or trick to help me see better and/or get better results using my squares to true a fence please educate me. Thanks again.
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
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dusty
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by dusty »

RFGuy wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:19 pm Thanks for all of the feedback. Okay, I think I made some progress today. My main table is square to the MasterPlate (checked with both my Woodpeckers 1281 square and Wixey digital angle gauge), so I am fairly sure the different measurements vs. height before are not due to a lack of 90°. What I did come to a conclusion on is that the straw trick that Ed recommended isn't working as well in my shop unfortunately. :( Going back and looking at the picture that Ed posted it looks like the straw he used is probably a larger diameter than the ones I use in my shop for cleaning up glue runout, etc. Using the straw and iterating many times I observed the SawGauge 1.0 inadvertently moving and affecting the measurement so the straw is affecting my measurements. I even saw the straw deform a bit at times, so I think even the straw wall thickness is likely a factor affecting the measurement too. So, I remembered that I had some steel 1/4" x 1" dowels in the shop that I bought for a project but never used. Using this instead of the straw yielded much more consistent AND lower measurements than before. :)

With connector tubes installed and locked to the aux table, I get +0.003" at the back of the MasterPlate and -0.001" at the front with 0.0 at center. This was for the right miter slot which is the only slot I ever use.

For the left slot, I get +0.002" at the back of the MasterPlate and 0.0 at the front with 0.0 at center.

I gave up on measurements without the connector tubes installed because I couldn't get repeatable results, i.e. it changes every time. Almost seems like you can sneeze on the main table and the dial indicator will deviate 0.003 or more. Not looking to do an alignment just yet given these measurements, but at least now I know that I can get some use out of my Woodpeckers SawGauge 1.0 with this workaround. If I hadn't already bought it, I would seriously consider getting the MagSwitch Saw Indicator (https://magswitch.com/product/universal-saw-indicator/) or copying Dusty's bearing solution.

IMG_5382.jpg

IMG_5383.jpg
"With connector tubes installed and locked to the aux table, I get +0.003" at the back of the MasterPlate and -0.001" at the front with 0.0 at center. This was for the right miter slot which is the only slot I ever use".

I must be reading something into this statement. With the connector tubes in place as described, can you adjust the table position for alignment? When I do this the table position is pretty much defined by the tubes and the extension table. What positioning that is available is not what I need to get good numbers.

It looks to me as though you have it "dead on". Good show.
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JPG
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by JPG »

HTH can one adjust the main table alignment with it connected to an aux table?

Any aux table adjustments must be made after the main table is correctly aligned.

A bit of tail wagging the dog here.

Wild goose chase as well.

Too big a magnifying glass at work here.(dial indicator)
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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by RFGuy »

JPG wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:10 am HTH can one adjust the main table alignment with it connected to an aux table?

Any aux table adjustments must be made after the main table is correctly aligned.

A bit of tail wagging the dog here.

Wild goose chase as well.

Too big a magnifying glass at work here.(dial indicator)
I know the word "alignment" is in the title of this thread, but I guess I don't know how many times I need to say that is not what I am doing yet. All of my posts indicated that I had issues with using my Woodpeckers Saw Gauge 1.0 on the Shopsmith table. The point that I was getting at was that I wanted confidence in my measuring tools first. Yes, the intent is to do an alignment and you make a very valid point that the alignment should be done without connector tubes. Unfortunately, my Shopsmith main table sways like one of those balloon men blowing in the wind when not connected to the aux table. Sorry if my attempt to better understand my measurement tools on this thread bored you. Next time I will just use PM instead...
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
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dusty
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by dusty »

PMs deprive all the others who are interested in the process and the results. So please don't resort to PMs for this sort of discussion. PMs in my opinion should be used almost exclusively to say those things that should not be said to everyone. Sorta like reprimanding a worker in front of the entire work force. Don't do it.

The beauty of this forum is that it is available to those who are interested. For those who are not - go somewhere.
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by JPG »

If any of his 'bored' me I would have been silent. Do not take my comments/opinion/bias as being disinterested.

One learns from LISTENING/ and discussion with those of differing points of view.

However doing that successfully also requires suppressing one's ego.

I DO understand thy frustration with the 'adventure'. I simply think the goal is excessively ambitious. The SS was not designed to be as stable/precise as you would like. Nothing 'wrong' with that however.
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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Post by dusty »

Just a short side trip from what I have been doing:
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RFGuy
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Re: A view on alignment of the shopsmith.

Post by RFGuy »

JPG,

I have the utmost respect for you as you are one of the gurus on this forum, but sometimes your posts leave a bit to be desired. I guess I still haven't figure out your shorthand.

"HTH can one adjust the main table alignment with it connected to an aux table?"
Inflammatory, but you are right as always.

"Any aux table adjustments must be made after the main table is correctly aligned."
Yes, you are right.

"A bit of tail wagging the dog here."
Had to look this one up...it means that a small or unimportant part of something is becoming too important and is controlling the whole thing. Presumably this is in reference to me doing a small investigation into why my Saw Gauge 1.0 wasn't giving me results that I could trust. So, now my trying to understand how/why my Saw Gauge 1.0 wasn't working well on the Shopsmith table has blown up to be bigger than anything else? Really? This tool sat in a drawer unused for like a year. Thanks to Ed starting this post it prompted me to take a 2nd look at it and figure out why it was failing me before. I spent at most 15 minutes investigating it on this thread and put it back in a drawer. I am back to building which is what I enjoy doing. How exactly is this tail wagging the dog???

"Wild goose chase as well."
Honestly, this one did hurt my feelings. EVERYTHING leading up to my solution for this tool certainly felt like a wild goose chase. However getting a solution where I can use this tool, as I did yesterday, felt good because I figured it out finally. Hooray! Yet this was all diminished because you still think I am chasing my tail. I guess I just felt that I was being heckled while trying to learn which is annoying. If this was not your intent, then I apologize.

"Too big a magnifying glass at work here.(dial indicator)"
Can you expound on this sentence so that maybe I can understand it?
📶RF Guy

Mark V 520 (Bought New '98) | 4" jointer | 6" beltsander | 12" planer | bandsaw | router table | speed reducer | univ. tool rest
Porter Cable 12" Compound Miter Saw | Rikon 8" Low Speed Bench Grinder w/CBN wheels | Jessem Clear-Cut TS™ Stock Guides
Festool (Emerald): DF 500 Q | RO 150 FEQ | OF 1400 EQ | TS 55 REQ | CT 26 E
DC3300 | Shopvac w/ClearVue CV06 Mini Cyclone | JDS AirTech 2000 | Sundstrom PAPR | Dylos DC1100 Pro particulate monitor
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