CPSC - How to Comment

Moderator: admin

User avatar
JPG
Platinum Member
Posts: 35430
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky (TAMECAT territory)

Post by JPG »

beeg wrote:For you it's unnecessary, but know for jpg. :)

I was almost finished when I went to google to check spelling a word. I clicked on obviously the wrong thing and came back to the forum. Could not 'get back' to the online editing screen.

JPG does not do 'word'( it's a microsoft thing!:eek:):D.

Since he is a hunt and peck typer, it takes a while to say things.

Really I was being very objective and trying to express a hobbyist view from someone with all appendages that has never used a saw guard etc. for over a half century. Point being those who pay attention do not get hurt!(so far!]will [/B]talk to you if you care to listen.

I do hope Dusty is correct that the 'petitioner' will not get an exclusive mandate.
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
User avatar
dusty
Platinum Member
Posts: 21481
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona

Post by dusty »

JPG40504 wrote:I was almost finished when I went to google to check spelling a word. I clicked on obviously the wrong thing and came back to the forum. Could not 'get back' to the online editing screen.

JPG does not do 'word'( it's a microsoft thing!:eek:):D.

Since he is a hunt and peck typer, it takes a while to say things.

Really I was being very objective and trying to express a hobbyist view from someone with all appendages that has never used a saw guard etc. for over a half century. Point being those who pay attention do not get hurt!(so far!]will [/B]talk to you if you care to listen.

I do hope Dusty is correct that the 'petitioner' will not get an exclusive mandate.
There well be members of the council who would like to give Steven Gass (aka Sawstop) an exclusive on this but I believe the lawsuits would fly if they did. There has been far too much open discussion.

I suspect that a few of the major manufacturers already have something to release when the time is right or the situation makes it necessary. They are not going to retool until they have to in order to compete. You can bet they are watching Gass's market share very closely.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
User avatar
JPG
Platinum Member
Posts: 35430
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky (TAMECAT territory)

Post by JPG »

I believe you are correct, and 'they' are not going to commit resources to any new designs(theirs or others) until the playing field has been defined.

Too much uncertainty at present. I do hope the CPSC does something so all can move forward and hopefully prevent future harm!

Sadly it has become necessary to protect the segment of the population that is clueless regarding personal responsibility. A self perpetuating(expanding) policy!
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
User avatar
beeg
Platinum Member
Posts: 4791
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: St. Louis,Mo.

Post by beeg »

JPG40504 wrote: Sadly it has become necessary to protect the segment of the population that is clueless regarding personal responsibility. A self perpetuating(expanding) policy!
HOW will they be protected if they turn off that protection? :eek:
SS 500(09/1980), DC3300, jointer, bandsaw, belt sander, Strip Sander, drum sanders,molder, dado, biscuit joiner, universal lathe tool rest, Oneway talon chuck, router bits & chucks and a De Walt 735 planer,a #5,#6, block planes. ALL in a 100 square foot shop.
.
.

Bob
User avatar
dusty
Platinum Member
Posts: 21481
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona

Post by dusty »

beeg wrote:HOW will they be protected if they turn off that protection? :eek:
I think it is called TRAINING! Familiarization with the hazards presented by the power tools would do a lot. Take a serious look at how profession woodworkers are required to perform under OSHA and how well OSHA is making sure they do what is required.

I think that manufacturers of woodworking power tools (including Shopsmith) should be required to provide a Safety CD with every power tool they sell. That CD should be tailored to the specific hazards of that specific manufacturers tools (not a generic PTI production).

I am not at all impressed by the safety videos that PTI has released.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
User avatar
JPG
Platinum Member
Posts: 35430
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky (TAMECAT territory)

Post by JPG »

beeg wrote:HOW will they be protected if they turn off that protection? :eek:
They do not need 'protection', they need common sense or as Dusty has said, training!.

We do not allow folks to drive automobiles without training and testing. We do not allow airplane pilots to do so without training and testing.

Granted the main reason for those is to protect the general public from 'them', but it should apply to self inflicted risky actions as well. This assumes there should be any concern for their ignorant actions which result in placing themselves at risk. I do not totally agree with that assumption. We do have an obligation to try and make them aware. Sadly common sense is far too uncommon anymore(IMHO the result of expecting others to take responsibility for one's own actions).
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
User avatar
dusty
Platinum Member
Posts: 21481
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona

Post by dusty »

If you go here you can view the comments that have been posted to the web by CPSC.

Fill in as shown and click SEARCH

[ATTACH]14512[/ATTACH]

I have posted but my comments are not shown. Either I have been censored or it takes time to review and approve the comments to viewing. I assume the later.

If you have any feeling about this issue at all, please read a few of these comments.

You will find that the opinions are quite varied with a rather high approval of the flesh detection technology. Much more favorable than I would have thought. I also find that there is a great deal of support for training in the proper use of power tools.

I would buy into a ruling that said all user's must participate in some sort of training session BEFORE I buy into a requirement to incorporate SawStop.

After reading many of the comments, I wonder if formal training might be the difference. I had training in SHOP SAFETY procedures (do's and dont's) beginning in junior high school (9th grade) and extending four years to graduation. There are many things that I just do not do because of that training. Is that training what is really lacking.

Shopsmith (all tool manufacturers for that matter) would do well to offer training courses (on CD) that come with every power tool they sell. Yes, it would come with a cost but that would be better than being forced by the Government to include flesh detection on new Mark 7s.

The Sawdust Sessions, in a small way, did (do) provide some of that training and PTI offers some online videos that also touch on table saw safety. The PTI videos are too generic and IMHO need to be expanded upon to be taken seriously.

I can just imagine the impact that a safety video would have when it opens with a clip showing a piece of wood being kicked back across the shop embedding itself in the wall and then detailing what might have caused that. It would get my attention.
Attachments
CPSC_1 (Custom).png
CPSC_1 (Custom).png (303.09 KiB) Viewed 2242 times
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
User avatar
riot_nrrd
Gold Member
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:44 pm
Location: Sterling, VA

Filing

Post by riot_nrrd »

Hey guys - sorry to be late, work has been a real $#@!#$.

Here is what I just submitted - feel free to pilfer, but hurry - comments close TODAY:

DECEMBER 12, 2011
VIA ELECTRONIC FILING


UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
BEFORE THE
CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION

Docket No. CPSC–2011–0074

RESPONSE OF ANDREW RODRIQUEZ, PRIVATE CITIZEN,
TO TABLE SAW BLADE CONTACT INJURIES;
ADVANCE NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING;
REQUEST FOR COMMENTS AND INFORMATION



I. Notices and Communications
Notices and communications with respect to this filing may be addressed to the following:
Andrew Rodriquez
<address removed>

II. Introduction
As a hobbyist woodworker, I wish to express my concern regarding the possibility of the CPSC issuing any sort of rulemaking regarding an obligation to include “flesh-detection” technology on table saws. While I understand the CPSC’s concern regarding table saw safety, there are a number of alternative approaches already in existence that make the need for such a rulemaking questionable. While recent legal actions (such as the Osario vs. One World Technology case) might seem to indicate a need for regulation, drawing such a conclusion from current evidence is flawed.
III. Alternative Safety Methods Exist
While it is easy to assume that flesh sensing technology is the answer, it is an excessive solution to a problem for which many other options exist.
The most obvious option is for users to follow the instructions that come with the tool. Table saw manuals identify “danger zones” and specify any number of safe procedures to be used when operating the tool. The obligation to include such procedures and warnings is already within the jurisdiction and regulation of the CPSC.
Next, users can and should use simple tools like push sticks to keep their hands out of the danger zone. Pus sticks are simple mechanisms, often made from scrap lumber, that are used to guide workspaces through a saw blade with minimal risk to the user. These sorts of tools take a minimum amount of skill to assemble, and in many cases can simply be a block of wood.
Third, there are any number of more advance work piece handling tools that can be used. Similar to push sticks, they are designed to keep user appendages outside the danger zone for the given tool. IN addition to the simple safety provided by a push stick, these devices often include advanced ergonomic or utility benefits.
This is not to say that flesh-sensing technology does not have a place in society. Clearly, some people will choose to place a premium on safety and wish to have as many safeguards in place as possible. However, that should be the consumer’s choice, not a regulatory decision.
IV. CPSC Action in this Area is Preferential, Unjust, and Not in the Public Interest
At this point in time, there is only one commercial provide of “flesh-sensing technology,” and that is the system developed by SawStop. While other technologies exist (such as the “Whirlwind” system currently being developed and tested), they are not true “flesh-sensing” technologies, as they are based on obstruction, rather than skin impedance or resistivity.
The SawStop technology is patented. While it can be licensed, there is only one provider of the technology. As such, until such time as that patent expires, any CPSC action to mandate flesh-sensing technology would essentially create a monopoly in violation of anti-trust laws.
Further, such a regulation would clearly raise the cost of a commonly used tool. Table saws are often one of the primary tools in a workshop, as it can perform so many basic functions – straight cuts, miter cuts, rip cuts, dado cuts, cutting tenons, and more. Assuming the CPSC action being considered is only limited to table saws, it should be noted that the “basic” SawStop table saw is listed on the SawStop website as starting at $1599. Similarly configured saws without “flesh sensing technology” current cost $600 or less, while extremely basic table saws can be purchased for less than $200 . In other words, the marginal cost of this technology today is approximately $1000-$1400 per tool. Such an increase would effectively “price out” the average user. While it is possible the technology itself could come down in cost as volumes increase, it s unlikely that such reductions would be able to overcome such a significant hurdle.
Further, such action might have a more negative side effect that positive. Absent a table saw, workers may shift to less conventional approaches to perform tasks better suited to a table saw (e.g., circular saws, band saws, jig saws, radial arm saws, miter saws, etc….). Before taking any action, I would ask the CPSC to analyze the impact of transferring this work to this other equipment to determine whether the inevitable migration from table saws to alternatives would actually reduce risk, or increase it as workers begin having to use tools with which they are less familiar.
Finally, beyond the hobbyist, many small businesses use portable table saws. Raising the price of a table saw and increasing the burden on such small businesses is likely to have a negative effect on these businesses, demographically “singling out” the lower income workers that depend on such tools to perform the labor that is core to their businesses. While it would be incorrect to assert this as any sort of class-based discrimination, the fact of the matter is that lower-income groups will be disproportionately affected by the proposed rule compared to others.
V. Operational Safety is the Responsibility of the Operator, not the Manufacturer
With any operation involving machinery, there is an inherent risk that must be considered. Woodworkers are not obligated to buy table saws; they choose to do so to meet specific needs. There are a number of woodworkers that pride themselves using only hand tools to build, so alternatives to power tools clearly exist.
While people may injure themselves with table saws, it is because cutting wood (with a table saw, a circular saw, a hand saw, or any other instrument) contains by definition some risk. Anything that can cut wood will also cut flesh. However, there are a number of home appliances and tools with similar capabilities:
• Food processors
• Meat slices
• Chain saws
• Meat grinders
• Lawn mowers
The public has learned to treat these implements with respect, and recognize their inherent risk. While some of these tools have safety elements built into them (e.g., “kill” switches built into lawn movers and chain saws), they nonetheless retain some element of danger (e.g, running over a foot with a lawn mower, or cutting into a leg with a chain saw). Regulation should be limited to protecting consumers from tools that are dangerous, but not activities that are dangerous. In this case, the activity by its very nature carries risk, whether being performed with a hand saw, a hammer, or a any of a hundred other tools used in wood working. To call out the table saw is arbitrary at best, and at worst, seems to indicate a specific interest created through aggressive lobbying focuses more on creating demand for a new technology as opposed to actual produce safety.
VI. The Carlos Osario Case is the Exception
The recent Osario Case, in which a plaintiff successfully sued a tool manufacturer for the p[plaintiffs improper use of the tool, is an example of a case where the legal system failed. IN that case, a jury found in favor of a plaintiff who chose to violate a number of common sense safety practices, any one of which could have kept him from harm. In that case, Carlos Osario:
• Did not have experience using a table saw
• Operated the table saw with several safety features removed (the blade guard and the splitter)
• Attempted to perform a “rip” cut without properly setting up the table saw to perform “rip” cuts (not using a “rip”fence)
• Encountered trouble with binding during the cut, but attempted to “force” the cut, with that excessive use of force ultimately carrying his hand into the saw blade
As a woodworker, I believe it is reasonable to assume that anyone who took these actions was themselves negligent, and their negligence was the cause of their injury. While it is true that flesh-sensing technology would have reduced or eliminated Mr. Osarios injuries, so would a minimum level of competency as can reasonably be expected from a professional performing this job. At a minimum, a professional would have used a rip fence, which would have reduced the possibility of the saw binding. Additionally, keeping the blade guard in place also likely would have mitigated the problem. The improper actions of an unskilled laborer using a tool for which they had not undertaken any minimal level of user education or training (such as reading the manual) is not a justification to impose such draconian regulation as is implied by the CPSC’s ANOPR.
VII. Conclusion
While I believe the CPSC is well intentioned, its ANOPR preludes to a regulatory direction that is inappropriate. The balance between public regulation and personal responsibility can at times be difficult to manage, but in this case, such an intrusive regulation goes far beyond what is just and reasonable. For these reasons, I ask that the CPSC reconsider their policy direction, and not pursue a rulemaking that would impose a requirement for table saw manufacturers to include flesh-sensing technology on their tools.

Respectfully Submitted,

Andrew Rodriquez
<address removed>
RiotNrrd

Shopsmith 510 with PowerPro upgrade, Bandsaw, Jointer, Planer, Belt Sander
Incra 1000 HD, Miter Express, TS-III, Wonderfence Other miscellaneous Dewalt, Ryobi, and Craftsman
User avatar
JPG
Platinum Member
Posts: 35430
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky (TAMECAT territory)

Post by JPG »

Well Said! Excellent!
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
User avatar
billmeyer
Gold Member
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:25 pm
Location: Weir, Kansas

Post by billmeyer »

If I wasn't so lazy, I would give you a standing ovation! They might look at me kind of odd at work though!

That is very well written and expresses a lot of woodworkers beliefs on this issue.

Great job!
Bill
Post Reply