So why don't YOU call them? I'd be a calling after the second day. As they say. "the greasy wheel gets the squeak ".keakap wrote:It's only been about 4 months I've been waiting for that 'call back'.
Danger!
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SS 500(09/1980), DC3300, jointer, bandsaw, belt sander, Strip Sander, drum sanders,molder, dado, biscuit joiner, universal lathe tool rest, Oneway talon chuck, router bits & chucks and a De Walt 735 planer,a #5,#6, block planes. ALL in a 100 square foot shop.
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Bob
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Bob
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JPG
- Platinum Member
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- Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
- Location: Lexington, Ky (TAMECAT territory)
I just realized why they have not called back!beeg wrote:So why don't YOU call them? I'd be a calling after the second day. As they say. "the greasy wheel gets the squeak ".
They only respond to 'Domestic' calls!:D
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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ppengineeratss
- Bronze Member
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:31 am
PowerPro "DANGER!"
Good morning all...
I have held my tongue long enough. There things that many of you do not seem to understand the purpose of this Shopsmith Forum. I want to clear up a couple of items about the Forum and then I will address the concerns regarding the posting "Danger!" about the PowerPro Headstock.
1. The Shopsmith Forum is intended for the exchange of information between, and entertainment of, users of Shopsmith tools and equipment. This information comes from users with differing experience levels, education and expertise so the information may or may not be correct.
2. This Forum is NOT a direct line to Shopsmith Customer Service or Shopsmith Engineering. Do NOT expect a response from Shopsmith Customer Service or Shopsmith Engineering from a posting on this Forum. Shopsmith associates do NOT monitor it on a regular schedule. If you wait weeks for a response after posting here you deserve what you get.
3. This Forum is NOT the proper way to inform Shopsmith of a problem with any one of their produces or products. See #1 above.
To contact Shopsmith Customer Service call 800-543-7586 or by e-mail at customerservice@shopsmith.com. Shopsmith Customer Service responds to EVERY e-mail and EVERY phone call they receive. I help them respond to too many of them to believe otherwise.
With that said, I want to comment on the recent thread about noise (growling or rattling) posted under "Danger!" while using the Bandsaw on the Mark-V with the PowerPro Headstock. I am the Engineer that worked on the PowerPro. I am also a 45+year woodworker who has worked on Shopsmith equipment since June 4th 1979. I am not just blowing smoke when I discuss the topic of either woodworking or the PowerPro. The answers below are from my personal woodworking experiences and in-depth knowledge of how the PowerPro works.
This noise when running the Bandsaw is always caused by either loose setscrews hubs that secure the hubs to their shafts, a loose or worn coupler, a loose setscrew on the accessory on the quill or a loose setscrew on the motor pulley.
The noise/vibration is caused by the electronics that control the motor in the Headstock reacting to the slightest vibration caused by the loose setscrew. The speed and torque of the motor are sensed, measured and reacted to many, many times a second. When vibration that is not normal is sensed, the electronics send a pulse (either positive or negative) to the motor at the speed of light. This pulse is intended to correct for the condition that was sensed and correct for it. This sounds like a growling noise. The PowerPro "Knows" normal vibrations like the cutting of wood with the Bandsaw blade, Table Saw or Lathe chisels are reacted to in a smooth manner.
A few setscrew tightening tips...
Regarding the "Saw blade coming loose". I have never known a setscrew to fail in a saw arbor. I have seen worn threads over decades of use, but never stripped threads on either the arbor or the setscrew. In my experience, one of two things has happened. First, and least likely considering the source, the setscrew in the arbor was not tightened on the flat. Second, the nut on the arbor was not tightened sufficiently. Regarding the second... The arbor nut tightens against the blade on the arbor with the rotation of use. This prevents the nut that secures the blade to the arbor from coming loose when sawing. The PowerPro stops quicker than the conventional Headstock, especially at the slower Bandsaw speed. Because of this, if the arbor nut is not tight enough, the inertia of the stopping blade on the arbor will loosen the arbor nut, allowing the blade to free-spin on the arbor... Another reason why not to leave the saw blade mounted to the Headstock when using the Bandsaw.
By the way, if the setscrew in the saw arbor is not properly tightened and comes loose, two good things happen to prevent injury. First, the tapered flat on the quill spindle prevents the saw arbor with the blade from moving more than 1/8" on the quill. The loose setscrew simply contacts the flat at a shallower point and stops the arbor from going further. Second, if the setscrew in the saw arbor is positioned on the quill spindle, away from the flat, or not tightened at all, the blade would "free-spin" when the machine is stopped. When this happens, the blade on the arbor is contained inside the saw table insert opening and could only move 1/2" at the most. This is not near enough for the arbor to come off the spindle.
I hope I have cleared up what the Forum is used for and also have answered questions regarding the PowerPro and how it operates and why it can run noisy.
Have a GREAT day!!!
Jim
I have held my tongue long enough. There things that many of you do not seem to understand the purpose of this Shopsmith Forum. I want to clear up a couple of items about the Forum and then I will address the concerns regarding the posting "Danger!" about the PowerPro Headstock.
1. The Shopsmith Forum is intended for the exchange of information between, and entertainment of, users of Shopsmith tools and equipment. This information comes from users with differing experience levels, education and expertise so the information may or may not be correct.
2. This Forum is NOT a direct line to Shopsmith Customer Service or Shopsmith Engineering. Do NOT expect a response from Shopsmith Customer Service or Shopsmith Engineering from a posting on this Forum. Shopsmith associates do NOT monitor it on a regular schedule. If you wait weeks for a response after posting here you deserve what you get.
3. This Forum is NOT the proper way to inform Shopsmith of a problem with any one of their produces or products. See #1 above.
To contact Shopsmith Customer Service call 800-543-7586 or by e-mail at customerservice@shopsmith.com. Shopsmith Customer Service responds to EVERY e-mail and EVERY phone call they receive. I help them respond to too many of them to believe otherwise.
With that said, I want to comment on the recent thread about noise (growling or rattling) posted under "Danger!" while using the Bandsaw on the Mark-V with the PowerPro Headstock. I am the Engineer that worked on the PowerPro. I am also a 45+year woodworker who has worked on Shopsmith equipment since June 4th 1979. I am not just blowing smoke when I discuss the topic of either woodworking or the PowerPro. The answers below are from my personal woodworking experiences and in-depth knowledge of how the PowerPro works.
This noise when running the Bandsaw is always caused by either loose setscrews hubs that secure the hubs to their shafts, a loose or worn coupler, a loose setscrew on the accessory on the quill or a loose setscrew on the motor pulley.
The noise/vibration is caused by the electronics that control the motor in the Headstock reacting to the slightest vibration caused by the loose setscrew. The speed and torque of the motor are sensed, measured and reacted to many, many times a second. When vibration that is not normal is sensed, the electronics send a pulse (either positive or negative) to the motor at the speed of light. This pulse is intended to correct for the condition that was sensed and correct for it. This sounds like a growling noise. The PowerPro "Knows" normal vibrations like the cutting of wood with the Bandsaw blade, Table Saw or Lathe chisels are reacted to in a smooth manner.
A few setscrew tightening tips...
- Tighten all setscrews by wiggling them as you tighten them with the Allen wrench. This helps you find the bottom dead center of the flat.
- In addition to this, Hold the long end of the Allen wrench and securely tighten each setscrew.
- The shaft on the Bandsaw (and other major accessories) is soft and the setscrew in the Hub digs into it. If there is a trench in this shaft caused by the setscrew, and the setscrew is tightened in this trench, the PowerPro motor and electronics will not be happy because this is not a secure attachment and will loosen.
- Yes, you can use blue LOCTITE on the motor pulley setscrew and hub setscrews. I would not recommend using any LOCTITE on the saw arbors or other accessories that are mounted and removed from the quill spindle
- The comment to tighten the setscrew until it clicks is not good procedure either. It sounds like the "click" is the Allen wrench stripping out the setscrew or the wrench.
Regarding the "Saw blade coming loose". I have never known a setscrew to fail in a saw arbor. I have seen worn threads over decades of use, but never stripped threads on either the arbor or the setscrew. In my experience, one of two things has happened. First, and least likely considering the source, the setscrew in the arbor was not tightened on the flat. Second, the nut on the arbor was not tightened sufficiently. Regarding the second... The arbor nut tightens against the blade on the arbor with the rotation of use. This prevents the nut that secures the blade to the arbor from coming loose when sawing. The PowerPro stops quicker than the conventional Headstock, especially at the slower Bandsaw speed. Because of this, if the arbor nut is not tight enough, the inertia of the stopping blade on the arbor will loosen the arbor nut, allowing the blade to free-spin on the arbor... Another reason why not to leave the saw blade mounted to the Headstock when using the Bandsaw.
By the way, if the setscrew in the saw arbor is not properly tightened and comes loose, two good things happen to prevent injury. First, the tapered flat on the quill spindle prevents the saw arbor with the blade from moving more than 1/8" on the quill. The loose setscrew simply contacts the flat at a shallower point and stops the arbor from going further. Second, if the setscrew in the saw arbor is positioned on the quill spindle, away from the flat, or not tightened at all, the blade would "free-spin" when the machine is stopped. When this happens, the blade on the arbor is contained inside the saw table insert opening and could only move 1/2" at the most. This is not near enough for the arbor to come off the spindle.
I hope I have cleared up what the Forum is used for and also have answered questions regarding the PowerPro and how it operates and why it can run noisy.
Have a GREAT day!!!
Jim
Hi,
It seems someone has been spying on us mere mortals from shopsmith.
I guess the fact that we have someone who could write a nice instructional booklet on the PowerPro we ought to ALL write an email to customer service and ask for one might be in order. Oh by the way in the last 5 years I have on several occasions written in with zip as in zero response. I have also read that other are experiencing the same thing.... our advice is to call in cause the email doesn't work.
Now back to a booklet. I personally have doubts if I will ever get a powerpro, I simply don't have funds for that big a purchase anymore. If I were to take interest I would sure like to know more about it then what shopsmith has shared. The truth of the mater is we get way more information from fellow owners then is ever shared by shopsmith.com.
We are not to blame for not knowing things. If there are known issues with a certain set up then by all means share them with ALL of us. This feeding of the few on a per call basis is a way out of date idea when we have a forum that can get information out way better.
We have worked together to make this forum a friendly place and encourage others to ask questions, we have answered 1000's of technical questions that would have gone unanswered or kept the phones at shopsmith busy long in to the night by those seeking answers.
To me I like that people post issues here. I'm far then convinced that the powerpro is working properly with the bandsaw. That can be by design or a yet unsolved issue, too much feedback too much correction or maybe just responding to fast to change. See I already have an opinion based on what I have read on the forum, if I were to get a powerpro you know what one of my first tests will be....
A second issue, based on what I've read is the radio interference. That would be the second thing I would test for.
I would have no problem calling about such issues and I would have no problem sharing them here at the forum so we can all benefit from the solutions.
Now I guess I'm glad it is priced out of my reach cause I don't have to deal with it.
I found the "response" a bit out of touch from shopsmith, even a bit distressing for that matter. Not like much a partnership between the many and few.
Ed
It seems someone has been spying on us mere mortals from shopsmith.
I guess the fact that we have someone who could write a nice instructional booklet on the PowerPro we ought to ALL write an email to customer service and ask for one might be in order. Oh by the way in the last 5 years I have on several occasions written in with zip as in zero response. I have also read that other are experiencing the same thing.... our advice is to call in cause the email doesn't work.
Now back to a booklet. I personally have doubts if I will ever get a powerpro, I simply don't have funds for that big a purchase anymore. If I were to take interest I would sure like to know more about it then what shopsmith has shared. The truth of the mater is we get way more information from fellow owners then is ever shared by shopsmith.com.
We are not to blame for not knowing things. If there are known issues with a certain set up then by all means share them with ALL of us. This feeding of the few on a per call basis is a way out of date idea when we have a forum that can get information out way better.
We have worked together to make this forum a friendly place and encourage others to ask questions, we have answered 1000's of technical questions that would have gone unanswered or kept the phones at shopsmith busy long in to the night by those seeking answers.
To me I like that people post issues here. I'm far then convinced that the powerpro is working properly with the bandsaw. That can be by design or a yet unsolved issue, too much feedback too much correction or maybe just responding to fast to change. See I already have an opinion based on what I have read on the forum, if I were to get a powerpro you know what one of my first tests will be....
A second issue, based on what I've read is the radio interference. That would be the second thing I would test for.
I would have no problem calling about such issues and I would have no problem sharing them here at the forum so we can all benefit from the solutions.
Now I guess I'm glad it is priced out of my reach cause I don't have to deal with it.
I found the "response" a bit out of touch from shopsmith, even a bit distressing for that matter. Not like much a partnership between the many and few.
Ed
Thank you, ppengoneeratss (Jim) for your post (#13). I have copied the "normal" operation modes of the machine and will deep and study them.
Have also found that loose eccentric support tubes in the headrest will also effect noisy/vibration operation of the bandsaw. Some tubes fit loosely into the headrest and allow the bandsaw to rock forward and back.
Have also found that loose eccentric support tubes in the headrest will also effect noisy/vibration operation of the bandsaw. Some tubes fit loosely into the headrest and allow the bandsaw to rock forward and back.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
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JPG
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 35430
- Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:42 pm
- Location: Lexington, Ky (TAMECAT territory)
I wonder if Jim has ever had to work with Dave? You know, the one who "does not have time to read e-mails".
AIUI, Keakap 'called' CS.
I fear Jim is as Dusty mentioned a bit 'out of touch'.
Point to take to heart re PowerPro: Everything in the power train MUST BE SECURE! The instantaneous torque delivered as pulses will simply shake any looseness to the point of 'rattling' or worse. Previous induction motors are smooth(sluggish) when responding to varying loads so that did not matter so much.
FWIW I am encouraged by Jim (Mc?) taking time to address the 'issues'.
We sorely miss Nick's input!
AIUI, Keakap 'called' CS.
I fear Jim is as Dusty mentioned a bit 'out of touch'.
Point to take to heart re PowerPro: Everything in the power train MUST BE SECURE! The instantaneous torque delivered as pulses will simply shake any looseness to the point of 'rattling' or worse. Previous induction motors are smooth(sluggish) when responding to varying loads so that did not matter so much.
FWIW I am encouraged by Jim (Mc?) taking time to address the 'issues'.
We sorely miss Nick's input!
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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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dusty
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 21481
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
- Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona
Fear Not - For Shopsmith Hears All
This is good that Shopsmith is hearing the Hum on the forum.
It is also good that Jim (I assume Jim McCann) has responded with this technical advice. I hope, however, that he is practicing what he preaches. Do not rely on the forum to resolve technical issues; Customer Service should be relied on for that. I hope that Keakap has the answer to his growling, groaning bandsaw induced problem.
Jim clearly told the forum what he believe is causing the noise that keakap is hearing but did he call keakap directly; surely he did. After a sermon like that he wouldn't rely on the forum - would he.
As for using the email to customer service well I don't. I have tried and have never gotten a response. I have called and discussed this with Customer Service (no names here - I am going to refrain from naming names in CS) and was told very clearly that they flat do not have time to respond to their email questions. I do so hope that they are that busy.
I'm not going to say much more about the scolding we just received, at least not while I am still angry and feeling somewhat hurt.
Instead,
I'm going to make some sawdust before the sun comers up:). Hope I don't wake the neighborhood.
It is also good that Jim (I assume Jim McCann) has responded with this technical advice. I hope, however, that he is practicing what he preaches. Do not rely on the forum to resolve technical issues; Customer Service should be relied on for that. I hope that Keakap has the answer to his growling, groaning bandsaw induced problem.
Jim clearly told the forum what he believe is causing the noise that keakap is hearing but did he call keakap directly; surely he did. After a sermon like that he wouldn't rely on the forum - would he.
As for using the email to customer service well I don't. I have tried and have never gotten a response. I have called and discussed this with Customer Service (no names here - I am going to refrain from naming names in CS) and was told very clearly that they flat do not have time to respond to their email questions. I do so hope that they are that busy.
I'm not going to say much more about the scolding we just received, at least not while I am still angry and feeling somewhat hurt.
Instead,
I'm going to make some sawdust before the sun comers up:). Hope I don't wake the neighborhood."Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
In the last 2008 Shopsmith catalog, A Shopsmith Service/Techincal Support toll free number 1-800-762-7555 is listed. Has anyone tried this number or does it still work? Thanks.
Bill Mayo bill.mayo@verizon.net
Shopsmith owner since 73. Sell, repair and rebuild Shopsmith, Total Shop & Wood Master headstocks, SPTs, attachments, accessories and parts. US Navy 1955-1975 (FTCS/E-8)
Shopsmith owner since 73. Sell, repair and rebuild Shopsmith, Total Shop & Wood Master headstocks, SPTs, attachments, accessories and parts. US Navy 1955-1975 (FTCS/E-8)
