3" Caster Upgrade - My Review

[JPG]

After completing the upside down part of my double-tilt upgrade I decided to check the wheels. I got a 4x8 sheet of plywood and put it on top of the legs to act as a floor. The first thing I noticed is my wheels hit the wood even in all three settings (this was not the case before the upgrade). I removed several washers so that the wheels no longer touch when they should not. During the upgrade you are encouraged not to tighten the legs to the headstock rest until the machine is turned over and leveled with the floor.

So after getting the wheels as close to the wood as possible with washers I tried adjusting the legs and noticed that I now needed the washers again to get close to the wood.

I no longer think this issue is just hole placement, I think the position of the legs has a much bigger inpact than anyone thought. I plan on turning over the machine tomorrow, finish leveling the machine and then seeing if I still need any washers or I need to add end more washers to get the desired 1/4" and 1/2" clearance.

I am very curious how SS is telling you to do that! IMHO the alignment of the bench and way tubes is critical so as to minimize other alignment problems. I agree that the legs should be secured last and not allowed to pull the base out of alignment. There is enough slop in the leg mounting holes to cock the legs, so a flat floor is imperative. The legs need to make the bench(and way tubes) tubes parallel to the floor.

If the legs splayed out when inverted, the casters would be closer to the plywood than before.

[JPG]

I have attached a scan of the template that I followed with a ruler thrown in the scan so you can get an accurate scale. A quick check with a ruler showed 1.75 inches between the old holes and the new holes. If I had more time, I would measure the scan accurately.

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthr ... post120099

1 3/4" Ed moved his 1 1/2", but he had one hole off to begin with.

So 5/16" too high makes sense.

The confusion continues!

I think I would redrill yours 1 7/16" above the original(on a line passing through the center of all holes).

[Ed in Tampa]

I think you are off the deep end, Ed.

You don't even know what , if anything, is wrong.

rwilabee: What did you expect that you do not have?

The legs clear when the wheels are down (both positions) and the wheels are free of the ground when the legs are grounded.

Maybe I don't understand.

Dusty
I may be off the deep end to you but I think it is a reasonable expectation on my part.

If I paid the price Shopsmith asked for a VII and I got it put it together following Shopsmith's directions and it wasn't "PERFECT" I would send it back and demand a refund.

I would not expect to be asked to jerry rig the device by placing washers that I had to purchase to make a nearly four thousand dollar purchase right.

To me that would be similar to asking a new car owner to buy a few shims so he can adjust his headlights high enough to see the road. I would say, "if you can't correctly adjust the headlights as designed by the factory what else is wrong? I don't want to know so here is your car."

This isn't rocket science this is attention to detail. Shopsmith controls all the details. We aren't talking about various lenght legs, or various length casters, or any variable outside shopsmith's control. A brandnew machine with brand new casters should made to be mounted by a brand new user perfectly. No exception. How else can they warrant asking $4000 for the machine?

One thing is for sure if we never demand quality we will probably never get quality.

[JPG]

I totally agree with what this Ed just said also!;)

I doubt they would 'take it back'(especially the legs), but the principle should be there.

[dusty]

Dusty
I may be off the deep end to you but I think it is a reasonable expectation on my part.

If I paid the price Shopsmith asked for a VII and I got it put it together following Shopsmith's directions and it wasn't "PERFECT" I would send it back and demand a refund.

I would not expect to be asked to jerry rig the device by placing washers that I had to purchase to make a nearly four thousand dollar purchase right.

To me that would be similar to asking a new car owner to buy a few shims so he can adjust his headlights high enough to see the road. I would say, "if you can't correctly adjust the headlights as designed by the factory what else is wrong? I don't want to know so here is your car."

This isn't rocket science this is attention to detail. Shopsmith controls all the details. We aren't talking about various lenght legs, or various length casters, or any variable outside shopsmith's control. A brandnew machine with brand new casters should made to be mounted by a brand new user perfectly. No exception. How else can they warrant asking $4000 for the machine?

One thing is for sure if we never demand quality we will probably never get quality.

Let me start with the premise that we are discussing a late model Mark V or later. There are some exceptions if we are talking about an older Mark V (500,505,510). These older machines may be dimensionally different. We know that caster assemblies are.

Once a user begins making modifications to the machine, Shopsmith is no longer in control. That user is the controlling factor unless the instructions are incorrect or ambiguous. If one cannot read and follow instructions explicitly, that does not make the instructions invalid.

If you follow the instructions now being shipped with the new wheels, you will not be doing a jerry rig. But you have to follow those instructions. If you tweak those instructions because of what you have heard on the forum, you are now on your own. If you fail to follow those instructions and @#$% happens, you are again on your own. Don't blame the manufacturer.

I am comfortable with what I am saying because I have installed a set of new wheels and they meet the manufacturers claims. Each and every one of them. When you finish installing your new set of wheels you can come back and tell me whether or not I am wrong.

If your expectations are different than those stated in the manufacturer's documentation and they are not satisfied, you are SOL. If they are satisfied, you are one lucky dude.

I still believe you are off the deep end.

[fjimp]

Let me start with the premise that we are discussing a late model Mark V or later. There are some exceptions if we are talking about an older Mark V (500,505,510). These older machines may be dimensionally different. We know that caster assemblies are.

Once a user begins making modifications to the machine, Shopsmith is no longer in control. That user is the controlling factor unless the instructions are incorrect or ambiguous. If one cannot read and follow instructions explicitly, that does not make the instructions invalid.

If you follow the instructions now being shipped with the new wheels, you will not be doing a jerry rig. But you have to follow those instructions. If you tweak those instructions because of what you have heard on the forum, you are now on your own. If you fail to follow those instructions and @#$% happens, you are again on your own. Don't blame the manufacturer.

I am comfortable with what I am saying because I have installed a set of new wheels and they meet the manufacturers claims. Each and every one of them. When you finish installing your new set of wheels you can come back and tell me whether or not I am wrong.

If your expectations are different than those stated in the manufacturer's documentation and they are not satisfied, you are SOL. If they are satisfied, you are one lucky dude.

I still believe you are off the deep end.

Excellent explanation Dusty. Your comments mirror my experience perfectly. Jim

[Ed in Tampa]

Let me start with the premise that we are discussing a late model Mark V or later. There are some exceptions if we are talking about an older Mark V (500,505,510). These older machines may be dimensionally different. We know that caster assemblies are.

Once a user begins making modifications to the machine, Shopsmith is no longer in control. That user is the controlling factor unless the instructions are incorrect or ambiguous. If one cannot read and follow instructions explicitly, that does not make the instructions invalid.

If you follow the instructions now being shipped with the new wheels, you will not be doing a jerry rig. But you have to follow those instructions. If you tweak those instructions because of what you have heard on the forum, you are now on your own. If you fail to follow those instructions and @#$% happens, you are again on your own. Don't blame the manufacturer.

I am comfortable with what I am saying because I have installed a set of new wheels and they meet the manufacturers claims. Each and every one of them. When you finish installing your new set of wheels you can come back and tell me whether or not I am wrong.

If your expectations are different than those stated in the manufacturer's documentation and they are not satisfied, you are SOL. If they are satisfied, you are one lucky dude.

I still believe you are off the deep end.

Dusty
I totally agree but Nil said it was a brand new machine and he used the templates exactly as instructed.

Now if it was only Nil and only his machine I would probably have to say it is my guess Nil did something wrong.

But it isn't just Nil's machine. On this forum we have repeatedly heard the horror stories of mounting the new casters. Something is wrong somewhere.

It is sort of like when I worked for in the computer industry. Many messages as a solution said to hit any key. Meaning any key on the keyboard. However time after time customers would call in and say I can not find the "ANY" key. More than a few reps would get great joy out of this, calling the customer stupid. Well the customer wasn't stupid, we were, we could have solved the whole problem by simply changing the error message to say hit the "enter" key.

Since so many people have had the same problem I suspect it is caused by a false assumption be made somewhere. An assumption is being made were it wasn't intended or someone is assuming everyone will understand what is being said.

I say the problem is Shopsmith's when a brand new customer, with a brand new machine, installs brand new parts that result in a problem many other customers( both old and new) have complained of.

And I would be more than a little ticked if it has happened to me. Ticked enough to pack the whole thing up and send it back.

Again if I was the only one with the problem I would put all the blame on myself and accept my screw up but that is not the case here.

[dusty]

Dusty
I totally agree but Nil said it was a brand new machine and he used the templates exactly as instructed.

Now if it was only Nil and only his machine I would probably have to say it is my guess Nil did something wrong.

But it isn't just Nil's machine. On this forum we have repeatedly heard the horror stories of mounting the new casters. Something is wrong somewhere.

It is sort of like when I worked for in the computer industry. Many messages as a solution said to hit any key. Meaning any key on the keyboard. However time after time customers would call in and say I can not find the "ANY" key. More than a few reps would get great joy out of this, calling the customer stupid. Well the customer wasn't stupid, we were, we could have solved the whole problem by simply changing the error message to say hit the "enter" key.

Since so many people have had the same problem I suspect it is caused by a false assumption be made somewhere. An assumption is being made were it wasn't intended or someone is assuming everyone will understand what is being said.

I say the problem is Shopsmith's when a brand new customer, with a brand new machine, installs brand new parts that result in a problem many other customers( both old and new) have complained of.

And I would be more than a little ticked if it has happened to me. Ticked enough to pack the whole thing up and send it back.

Again if I was the only one with the problem I would put all the blame on myself and accept my screw up but that is not the case here.

I'm sorry but we really do not know enough about nil and nil's installation to jump on Shopsmith with both feet at this point.

The fact that nil has a new machine and I assume new caster assemblies (he did not actually say that) means that we are not dealing with caster sets from Yuba or Magna or anyone other than Shopsmith. Therefore, it is logical to assume that everything should fit and work properly.

What is not logical to assume is that 1) nil drilled all the holes in exactly the right location and 2) the caster assemblies are working properly. Furthermore, I think it is reasonable to ask nil if the caster assemblies that he is using are new. Why would I ask that. First because he didn't say they were and secondly, I wonder why he bought new wheels to go on a new caster assembly that already has new wheels.

I will admit that the template offered in the new 3" wheel kit did not impress me. It is accurate but it is paper. I used it to make a template (drill guide) made of wood and I used that drill guide (bolted in place) to drill the holes.

As for all the other people who have had this problem; I have not kept track but I have picked up on one thing. Many of them are user's who own "old caster sets"; some old enough that they might not have been manufactured by Shopsmith. These are also old enough that they may be dimensionally different. The template may not be universal.

[paulmcohen]

I am very curious how SS is telling you to do that! IMHO the alignment of the bench and way tubes is critical so as to minimize other alignment problems. I agree that the legs should be secured last and not allowed to pull the base out of alignment. There is enough slop in the leg mounting holes to cock the legs, so a flat floor is imperative. The legs need to make the bench(and way tubes) tubes parallel to the floor.

If the legs splayed out when inverted, the casters would be closer to the plywood than before.

I have a very flat floor so for me that was not an issue.

After flipping my Shopsmith and tightening the legs, the new casters work perfect with NO washers and I get the desired spacing in all positions. I would have never believed this would happen.

Now the only issue is the lever hits the top of the casters which they did not do with the washers and I am too lazy to remove the casters and move the lever. I may grind a tiny bit off the lever if it bothers me in actual use.

[dusty]

I have a very flat floor so for me that was not an issue.

After flipping my Shopsmith and tightening the legs, the new casters work perfect with NO washers and I get the desired spacing in all positions. I would have never believed this would happen.

Now the only issue is the lever hits the top of the casters which they did not do with the washers and I am too lazy to remove the casters and move the lever. I may grind a tiny bit off the lever if it bothers me in actual use.

Ah, a clue. The lever hits the casters. Do you have an old set of casters? One of those based on a design that predates "Shopsmith"?

The lever on mine are positioned inboard far enough that they come no where near the caster.

What did you do that now allows you to remove the washers? Did you have to redrill?