Need some input/suggestions

curiousgeorge · Post by **curiousgeorge** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:42 pm

Fred, the unit I bought is a dual hose 13000 BTU A/C with heat pump and I feel sure that it will work quite well in the shop/garage. It is rated for up to 550 sq. ft. and the shop area is only 400 sq. ft. The wall mounted split mini would have been nice for not taking up any more floor space but for the money I can work around the portable.

backhertz · Post by **backhertz** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:51 am

I had an addition added to the rear of our garage. I did not want to mix the air of the house with the air of the shop. I had the walls and ceiling sprayed with closed-cell foam. The foam air seals and provides excellent insulation performance. I have 4-6 inches in the ceiling and 3 1/2" in the walls. In the summertime if I keep the doors closed, the it stays around 63/64 degrees in the shop when it is in the 90's outside. In the winter, it can be 10 degrees outside and 42 degrees in the shop unless I open the door.

Fiberglass insulation 'breathes' and you'll often find dirty fiberglass where the biggest leaks are. Closed-cell foam in 4-6" layers is like R-50 of fiberglass because of the air sealing quality. My walls are like R-30 because I have 1" R7.2 panels on the outside of the sheathing.

Had our house air sealed as well and a 14' x 28' x 11' master bedroom addition. It is all handled by a 3 ton Carrier geothermal heat pump. I have a 10Kw solar power system which generates about 2 megawatts more per year than we consume. So PSE&G in NJ simply gives me a credit each August.

In the house I also have an ERV- energy recovery ventilator which sucks air from the bathrooms, kitchen, & laundry room at 20 CFM unless a bathroom timer is depressed. Then the ZRT (zone return terminal by American Aldes) has a damper that opens opens up and the ERV kicks up to high speed 200 CFM in that one bathroom and removed moisture while pre-cooling or preheating incoming air which I have fed into each of the bedrooms. That way we get 2-3 air changes per hour.

If you're gonna air seal, you should ventilate.

In your shops you should have dust control of some kind. It's late or I'd write more. Good luck.

robinson46176 · Post by **robinson46176** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:00 am

Insulation, it just keeps saving you money...

My 36'x40' "east wing" has 8" of fiberglass in the ceiling with 12" of cellulose blown over the top of it.
The old central part of the house (around 1840) was "acceptably" insulated in the 1970's but could use more especially at the old foundation. By having a east and west wing the old part only has 2 outside walls. The "west wing" was insulated by the builder in the 1980's but it is a priority for upgrading especially windows and the crawl space.
By heating with a wood furnace heating cost in zero weather is only $200 a month when buying all wood and this winter will be almost nothing burning the slab-wood from my sawmill and tree tops. My push to insulate though is driven by my knowledge that at our age we will not be able to heat with wood forever... My goal is to be well insulated all over and to heat with a hybrid system of solar and geo-thermal with simple baseboard electric to back it up. The wood furnace will remain in place for power outages. We also have a pellet stove, which I can run with an inverter in a power outage if we wanted to. We didn't even use it at all this year.
Beyond that you can only plan for so much.

.

2bits · Post by **2bits** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:57 pm

curiousgeorge wrote:I thank all of you for your replies but after several days of due diligence and a couple of bids from reputable companies I have decided that the split mini heat pump units would be the ideal solution but are very cost prohibitive. I could almost build a new shop with central heat and air for what they want for these things. I ended up ordering a portable ac/heat unit for about $500. I will just have to vent it through the window on the storm door of the shop or through the wall. I will follow up later as to how the unit works. That is if anyone is interested.

I would be very interested:) Now that you are working in my price range:rolleyes:

robinson46176 · Post by **robinson46176** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:48 pm

robinson46176 wrote:George, you are a man after my own heart. The added cost of a combination stroke, heart attack, gastric explosion etc. at just the thought of spending that kind of money to AC a garage for part time use would bankrupt me.
We AC 4,000 sq. ft. of our house (and have for several years now) with an about $300 window unit with the output distributed with the furnace blowers and a couple of carefully placed fans. Effective distribution is key along with a well insulated house and an open floor plan. Note that almost 1,000 feet of that 4,000 now includes my woodshop.
People keep telling me that it will not work but it does and very nicely thank you. It has served us very well during this otherwise maddening waaaay too dang long run of upper 90's and day after day of 100+ highs.
We do not refrigerate our house like many feel the need to do. We keep the house between 72 and 77 and find that it suits us well. In the winter we keep it about 68 to 74.
Another factor on the AC is the level of dehumidifying that is done. A lot of guys go the Tim Taylor route and want a half zillion BTU unit which cools the structure quickly but does not run long enough at a time to properly remove the humuggity. The excess moisture left in the air keeps it from feeling cool. Our little unit runs most of the time and keeps the air quite dry. Being a smaller unit it runs at very low cost.
Now I understand that in the case above other factors like restrictions put extreme limitations on choices and few options existed. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

As a quick follow-up here we just got our power bill today which covers a full month of AC (a lot of 90+ and triple digit temps) use in addition to any power used on the east side of the road part of the farm. This is all of the regular household use, the main water pump, power to 3 barns, one of which is the farm shop, the basement woodshop, all water heating etc. The total current charges (their pun, not mine

) are $154. I can live with that...

.

beeg · Post by **beeg** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:14 pm

Not bad for ya. Mine was about $145.00 for an 900 square foot house and temps in the 100's.

backhertz · Post by **backhertz** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:50 am

My electric bill is $2.52- just the cost of keeping an account open. I use a heat pump I described previously which is essentially all electric. A 57 module 9,975 watt solar panel power system generates all the power for my all electric, air sealed house. We generate slightly over 2 megawatts more per year then we use. The power company simply posts a credit each August on our anniversary month. Many solar companies are now offering good leasing deals. Can't say much as I've had a system for 4 years now.

If you use fiberglass which is a great value insulation media, just remember to air seal because fiberglass will simply act like a filter no matter how thick it is. Insulating with all closed cell foam is very costly- especially on an already constructed home. But get some cans of Hilti foam where Hilti also offers a 36" spray wand, you'll be able to reach & seal hard to reach areas.

Some power companies/states will conduct a free closed-door air sealing test to ascertain where your air leakage is at and work as sealing it as it represents lost energy dollars. Some states in the past actually paid to have homes analyzed and energy leaks sealed or even upgraded from single pane to double pane windows for a subsidized price.

I opted to have our attic air sealed with closed cell foam and the attic temp is about 6-8 degrees hotter than the upper floor room temperature. I essentially have a Coleman cooler for a home now.

The only sure way to determine your HVAC needs is an analysis done in compliance with Manual J for determining residential heat and cooling loads. I had 5 '[professional' contractors provide proposals and out of them, only one bothered to measure the interior of our house, measure the windows and count the number, and determine all the other factors that will effect energy consumption. Another tried to tell me about a rule of 'thumb'- there is no such thing. Another tried to sell me a 2 heat pump system with a third well and provided a professionally looking prepared 30 page report that would of cost me twice what I paid for the 3-ton unit and two 300' wells for two 600' closed loops. The last guy asked me to tell him what I felt I wanted...

I was permanently injured and realized we were wasting a fortune on energy costs and would be on a fixed income for the rest of my life. My goal was to beat the bushes and seek out the experts to help me achieve minimal electric bills. Well, because of all the energy efficiency upgrades, we no longer have an electric bill, but an electric surplus. If you have a shade-free Southern facing roof, many solar companies will provide free 20 year leases as I mentioned above. But it depends on what you want.

I didn't want solar panels to be seen from the front of my house & had an extension built off the back of our kitchen/dining room. I also didn't want to see anymore bare spots on my roof in the winter time when the roof should be covered with snow. I drive around my neighborhood in NJ in the winter time & look at the roof tops. It is easy to tell which houses have the original insulation from 1960 to those who added more from those who went with a good ridge & soffit vent system to my home which is completely air sealed. The snow stays on my roof the longest. The homes with original insulation will show the roof rafter lines within a few days as the heat is conducted through the rafters and so on. Try it some day & you'll see.

Now if I could eliminate the large cable & cell phone bills...

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:19 am

Quit watching TV and don't talk to anyone.

The internet is all you need.

All I need to do is convince my wife of that.

fredsheldon · Post by **fredsheldon** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:41 am

dusty wrote:Quit watching TV and don't talk to anyone.

The internet is all you need.

All I need to do is convince my wife of that.

In fact, you can watch TV and Movies and talk on your PC so you don't need a phone line or cable TV, just an internet connection.

fredsheldon · Post by **fredsheldon** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:48 am

backhertz wrote:My electric bill is $2.52- just the cost of keeping an account open. I use a heat pump I described previously which is essentially all electric. A 57 module 9,975 watt solar panel power system generates all the power for my all electric, air sealed house. We generate slightly over 2 megawatts more per year then we use. The power company simply posts a credit each August on our anniversary month. Many solar companies are now offering good leasing deals. Can't say much as I've had a system for 4 years now.

If you use fiberglass which is a great value insulation media, just remember to air seal because fiberglass will simply act like a filter no matter how thick it is. Insulating with all closed cell foam is very costly- especially on an already constructed home. But get some cans of Hilti foam where Hilti also offers a 36" spray wand, you'll be able to reach & seal hard to reach areas.

Some power companies/states will conduct a free closed-door air sealing test to ascertain where your air leakage is at and work as sealing it as it represents lost energy dollars. Some states in the past actually paid to have homes analyzed and energy leaks sealed or even upgraded from single pane to double pane windows for a subsidized price.

I opted to have our attic air sealed with closed cell foam and the attic temp is about 6-8 degrees hotter than the upper floor room temperature. I essentially have a Coleman cooler for a home now.

The only sure way to determine your HVAC needs is an analysis done in compliance with Manual J for determining residential heat and cooling loads. I had 5 '[professional' contractors provide proposals and out of them, only one bothered to measure the interior of our house, measure the windows and count the number, and determine all the other factors that will effect energy consumption. Another tried to tell me about a rule of 'thumb'- there is no such thing. Another tried to sell me a 2 heat pump system with a third well and provided a professionally looking prepared 30 page report that would of cost me twice what I paid for the 3-ton unit and two 300' wells for two 600' closed loops. The last guy asked me to tell him what I felt I wanted...

I was permanently injured and realized we were wasting a fortune on energy costs and would be on a fixed income for the rest of my life. My goal was to beat the bushes and seek out the experts to help me achieve minimal electric bills. Well, because of all the energy efficiency upgrades, we no longer have an electric bill, but an electric surplus. If you have a shade-free Southern facing roof, many solar companies will provide free 20 year leases as I mentioned above. But it depends on what you want.

I didn't want solar panels to be seen from the front of my house & had an extension built off the back of our kitchen/dining room. I also didn't want to see anymore bare spots on my roof in the winter time when the roof should be covered with snow. I drive around my neighborhood in NJ in the winter time & look at the roof tops. It is easy to tell which houses have the original insulation from 1960 to those who added more from those who went with a good ridge & soffit vent system to my home which is completely air sealed. The snow stays on my roof the longest. The homes with original insulation will show the roof rafter lines within a few days as the heat is conducted through the rafters and so on. Try it some day & you'll see.

Now if I could eliminate the large cable & cell phone bills...

I'm almost afraid to ask how much all this would cost?

$50,000 in an High Income Bond IRA would generate a monthly dividend check of about $250, more than double my power bills. And I would still have all my principle. However, it sure would be nice to never have a power bill:D