The Presidential Debate

fredsheldon · Post by **fredsheldon** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:37 am

As N.Y sinks beneath 15 feet of water those who don't believe in climate change will be looking for higher ground and demanding the government do something about the flooding and Sean Hannity will be in the first boat.

pennview · Post by **pennview** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:45 am

We should be clear here that hurricanes aren't something that began just a few years ago when all this excitement over global warming and then climate change came into vogue. The National Weather Service has a list of some of the significant storms in U.S. history dating back to 1900 here -- http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/outreach/history/ --

fredsheldon · Post by **fredsheldon** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:35 am

Art, true, hurricanes have been around forever, but rising ocean levels due to ice melting at the poles is something new and caused by global warming which is caused in part by man's actions. And in Texas, pumping water from underground is causing the land to sink along the coastlines. Those who choose to ignore the facts must live on a mountain and don't care

pennview · Post by **pennview** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:11 pm

Fred, MSNBC and Jon Stewart don't always get it right. This might prove helpful for those concerned about sea ice -- http://www.thestar.com/news/world/artic ... rming-over

heathicus · Post by **heathicus** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:15 pm

fredsheldon wrote:Art, true, hurricanes have been around forever, but rising ocean levels due to ice melting at the poles is something new and caused by global warming which is caused in part by man's actions. And in Texas, pumping water from underground is causing the land to sink along the coastlines. Those who choose to ignore the facts must live on a mountain and don't care

Is the climate changing? Sure it is. But I have seen no compelling evidence that man is the cause of it or even a significant contributor to it. The climate has been changing since the climate has existed. The Earth has been much colder than it is now AND much hotter than it is now, several times back and forth, long before man ever came along. Mars is experiencing a warming period too, and there are no men or factories or coal mines or internal combustion engines or cans of hairspray or farting cows there. There are climate cycles we all know about within cycles we have guesses about within cycles we have no clue about.

Glaciers retreating, polar ice caps melting, ocean levels rising... none of that is new. It's just "new to us." To the Earth, it's all happened before and will happen again long after we're gone.

heathicus · Post by **heathicus** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:42 pm

The way I'd reform the Presidential election system:

1) Only individuals may make political contributions (to a candidate, party, or PAC). Corporations may not. And records of every contribution must be publicly available - even those to PACs.
2) Once a candidate has a mathematical possibility of winning the election (is on the ballots in enough states to win enough electoral college votes):
2a) A certain amount of free and equal time (advertising and interviews) must be provided by major TV, print, and radio outlets (the amount of time to vary based on the type of media and the size of their audience). The candidates, parties and PACs can still buy additional advertising as restricting that would be a violation of their 1st Amendment rights. The idea is to guarantee that all viable candidates have an adequate baseline of media exposure.
2b) They must be invited to any debates that include any other candidate meeting this criteria.

pennview · Post by **pennview** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:51 pm

If the media were "fair and balanced" regarding the various political parties, trying to take the money out of politics would be fine. However, the press isn't neutral in how and what it covers as news, so you'd end up with skewed accounts of all things political. And that means one side would always have the advantage of favorable coverage by the press. In my thinking, the only way to offset the press is to spend money.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:55 pm

fredsheldon wrote:Art, true, hurricanes have been around forever, but rising ocean levels due to ice melting at the poles is something new and caused by global warming which is caused in part by man's actions. And in Texas, pumping water from underground is causing the land to sink along the coastlines. Those who choose to ignore the facts must live on a mountain and don't care

Obviously, fred, you don't remember the times right after the last ice age or that time back when the Grand Canyon was under construction. The "ice cap" has melted a couple time in the past.

fredsheldon · Post by **fredsheldon** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:59 pm

pennview wrote:Fred, MSNBC and Jon Stewart don't always get it right. This might prove helpful for those concerned about sea ice -- http://www.thestar.com/news/world/artic ... rming-over

Art, from your referenced web site, I quote ( The Antarctic Ice sheet is in the middle of winter by the time it hits summer there. The ice will have retreated to the continental shelves. The net effect of the ice in the winter will be negligible (ie within the error). But in the summer, the west Antarctic Ice sheet will be under threat and in the process of breaking up. You only have to look at the Larson ice shelf to see it.)

The Artic ice sheet is as thin as it has ever been and getting worse by the day.

Fred

pennview · Post by **pennview** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:31 pm

I think the guy who posted: "The Antarctic Ice sheet is in the middle of winter by the time it hits summer there" must be related to Al Gore, because that doesn't make much sense as the opening sentence in someone's argument about so-called global warming. The main point I take away from that site was "Antarctica is surrounded by the greatest mass of sea ice ever recorded there."

In any event, with winter about to set in here in my part of the world, I'd prefer a bit of warming.