Face Frames for built-in cabinetry

[missfixit]

Hi all, I feel like I'm crash landing here again!

This is my first built-in cabinetry project. I have never done any cabinet building, so I'm using this project to learn. Instead of choosing a small cabinet to start, I decided to build floor-to-ceiling cabinets and bookshelves on my neighbor's living room wall.

I have reached the point where I need face frames, but I don't know where to start. As you can see in this picture, I built 10 separate "boxes" and then attached them to a frame on the floor and the wall studs etc. It is all going spectacularly!

Unless... should I have built face frames on each "box" to start with, rather than waiting until this stage? I wanted to have just one trim piece in between each box... covering the gaps .. does that make sense? But how do I build a face frame that's over 15' long and 5' tall? I want to do it in pieces I think...plus the lower cabinets are going to have doors.

How do professionals do this sort of thing? Any advice would be great, I did buy a kreg jig so I could make face frames easier...just struggling with where to start!

[benush26]

First, usually the carcass is assembled and the face frame attached to the carcass.

Then they are attached to the wall.

First you attach one cabinet to the wall as your starting point. Often a corner. Plumb both directions, shim as needed and screw it to the wall. If it's above a counter then it helps to have a helper or some sort of brace under neath to hold it up. In your case since you have cabinets to set them on you should be fine to just plumb them without a helper.

You align the face frames of two cabinets (the starter and the next in the series), and once aligned clamp them and then secure them together and then shim as needed against the wall and fasten that cabinet to the studs in the wall.

Just keep doing that until you run out of cabinets or wall

If you don't want to remove those cabinets that you already have secured to the wall, you 'could' try and create frames, using the same method you would have used that consisted of stiles and rails and carefully construct them using the Kreg jig system as a few big pieces. I would use the Kreg mini jig on the walls of the cabinets to attach the frames. (use a clamp to hold the jig and drill from the inside towards the outside)

Carefully measure one cabinet and figure that your face frame should fill the space to the wall and half way between each cabinet. For the one on the side wall, make it and then clamp it to a cabinet wall and plumb it to the cabinet so there is continuity, scribe it, remove what you need to to follow the scribe line and then attach it to the cabinet. If your cabinets are plumb then your other joints will be, too, if not then at least they will all lean the same direction. Make one face frame at a time. Secure it to the cabinet and then custom make the next frame (minding gaps and such), etc. until they are all on. Because your cabinets are already attached to the wall, the frames may not align as well, and one seem may show up proud of the next at least part way along. Not much you can do unless you want to bring out the hand place or sander and plane/sand them even.

Not certain if that's what you were looking for.

[dusty]

Usually (as was said), one would build and attach the face frame to the carcass but not always. The face frame on the front of my shop cabinets was built after the cabinets were installed. Actually, the cabinets were installed and used for a long, long time without face frames.

The questions now are:

1) How are you going to construct the corners of the face frames. Half laps, butt joints, pocket screws, etc.

2) Is the face frame going to frame all of the cabinets or one at a time.

3) How are you going to attach the face frame to the cabinets. Pocket screws, biscuits, finish nails and glue, etc.

[missfixit]

1. - butt joints? hadn't really decided
2. - this is why i didn't build face frames on each individual cabinet. I didn't want that individual look... like i took a bunch of separate cabs and installed them together. I wanted it to look more seamless.
3. -i was hoping to just use my nail gun, but if I have to install them with pocket screws I could do that. I need to buy another tool...to shave off the wood plugs to make them flush. if i go that route

Thankfully my neighbor was up for this experiment!

[missfixit]

You align the face frames of two cabinets (the starter and the next in the series), and once aligned clamp them and then secure them together and then shim as needed against the wall and fasten that cabinet to the studs in the wall.

yeah I'm a little afraid that I will hose myself by attaching them to the wall first, not being 100% sure if the face frames will be level ! It's okay - I haven't even attached the top bookcases to the studs yet so I can do face frames first. The bottom cabs are another story :/

[terrydowning]

Wow, this is ambitious and you're off to a good start!

You have inadvertently entered into a very old debate.

You have chosen design for appearance and there is nothing wrong with that.

You still have lots of options here.

What are the carcasses made from? Its's hard to tell from the photos. This will help determine methods of attaching the face frame to the carcass.

If they are melamine or MDF, using a finish nailer for final attachment may not be the best choice. If plywood then using a finish nailer may be a good choice.

As far as joints for the face frame go, you still have all of the options as a design for manufacture route. Half laps, mitered half laps, miters with screws, butt joints with pocket screws, mitered with pocket screws, etc. This is mostly about appearance rather than structural integrity as the face frames are for the most part decorative unless you intend to hang doors. If you're hanging doors, you need very strong joints to handle the stresses of the doors opening and closing. The difficult part comes in assembly.

Can the entire frame be assembled then brought in? Is there moving room for this? Or do you have to do the final assembly in the room at the cabinets? Obviously, this is a semi permanent installation and not designed to be easily moved.

What is the overall length? This affects the material choice and design as well. Finding long clear strips of wood is neither inexpensive nor easy. Lots of additional questions here. I'm sure other with more cabinet building experience will chime in here as well.

Again, you're off to a great start, well done!! Keep on Keepin' on and don't give up now!

[missfixit]

What are the carcasses made from? Its's hard to tell from the photos. This will help determine methods of attaching the face frame to the carcass.

aaahhh ! I made the carcasses from 3/4" MDF, the shelves and the long board across the bottom cabinets is 3/4" birch plywood! So I guess I will be attaching face frames with pocket screws - thank you!

If you're hanging doors, you need very strong joints to handle the stresses of the doors opening and closing. The difficult part comes in assembly.

could I do butt joints with pocket screws? and hang doors on them? (the lower cabinets need doors and I was thinking of putting doors on the main upper cabinet where the TV goes - that's another story)

Can the entire frame be assembled then brought in? Is there moving room for this? Or do you have to do the final assembly in the room at the cabinets?

yup! That's why I'm building this in my next-door neighbor's house! I build it in my garage, and then she & I drag everything next door to her house. She doesn't care if I leave my tools all over her living room either, so that's why I chose her as the guinea pig!

What is the overall length? This affects the material choice and design as well. Finding long clear strips of wood is neither inexpensive nor easy.

overall length is over 15' ... see I was worried about finding wood strips that long, I was planning to butt 8' pieces together and hide the joints. That's why this is a painted job and not a stained. I'm not a good enough woodworker (YET) to make anything that has to be stained.

Thanks for your comments, they are super helpful !

[JPG]

I assume later removal of the face frames is NOT a goal.

The vertical faces I assume swill be wide enough to cover the adjacent edges.

The faces on the 'open' space should be the same width for appearance.

Are the corner cleats on the lower right cabinets also mdf?

Could you add cleats to the lower left cabinets also?

The horizontal faces should probably match the vertical faces.

Since painting is intended, just about any well behaved wood should work.

I agree pocket screws from the inside is probably the only reasonable method considering the post hanging fitting that is ahead.

I would first determine the 'flatness' of the entire front. You may need to shim with thin strips to achieve flatness.(glue them on)

I would also determine the 'plumbness' of each vertical side. That may indicate a need to increase the width of the face strips to hide the 'unplumbness'.

If you have a 'joint' in the center, I would think glueing it prior to attaching it to the carcass would minimize visibility.

I think continuous (15') horizontal face pieces with vertical butt joints(disc sanded to fit after sufficient acclimatization to the room) would achieve the non-modular look you seek.

I would alternate the pocket screw locations on the vertical faces.

I would only secure the horizontal middle face to the upper sections and the to the lower section at the open space. i.e. let the upper/lower sections float except at the open space.

Are the end faces going to extend to the side walls. If so consider small quarter round etc. The top????


P.S. Good to have ya back! We could all use some of your drive!

[missfixit]

thank you thank you thank you!

okay I think I will do everything you listed above, yes the gaps between the ends and the walls are still a question mark.. I could put more cleats on the lower cabinets sure. I was going to fill those gaps with a vertical board that I scribe to fit...maybe some quarter round or something..

The top - I am doing a slightly wider horizontal board across the top, as there will be 4 light fixtures (spotlights) wired to face down the front of the bookcases. (you can see my wiring in the pics, I wired that switch from an outlet below)

After the light fixtures, I'm planning to stack a baseboard upside down, and then a piece of crown on top of that, to build it up to the ceiling. I hope that this will work out.

[heathicus]

How are the shelves attached to the sides of the cabinets?