Right To Work Laws

[terrydowning]

I might be completely wrong on this issue but doesn't the union in Michigan want the right to collect union dues from non-union workers. If that is correct, this would be the issuer that made me join the protests.

FWIW, my experiences with unions in Texas was not all rosey. I was a salaried employee working for a defense contractor. As such, I was not allowed to join a union even if I wanted to.

But, if there was work to be done that could be done by a union employee, I better not get caught doing it myself. Example: I broke an electric outlet on a work bench in the engineering lab. I was in the midst of tests for which I needed that outlet strip. Schedules were tight. I could not tolerate a work stoppage that could be avoided. I drew a receptacle from engineering supply and proceeded to install it.

For that, I ended up before the grievance review board explaining why I did not issue a work request to have the outlet installed. I avoided a work stoppage and for that got my hands slapped.

I became rogue. I looked for ways that I could get crosswise with the union shops. I was fairly successful at doing so.

These and other items like this are precisely why I personally detest unions.

They tend to breed mediocrity, laziness and the whole "It's not my job" attitude. To the point a carpenter is not allowed to plug in a power tool at a union job site. That would be "completing a temporary circuit" and only a certified union electrician can do that. Which means an apprentice to actually plug the saw in, a journeyman to supervise the apprentice, and a craftsman to sign off on the operation. If an electrician is not available, then the carpenter waits at the job site until an electrician is available.

Is it any wonder employers/contractors prefer not to use unions??

[dusty]

Most northern states were union states, if you wanted to work in an industry that had a union you were expected to join it. I worked a summer in the Steel Mill I wasn't even asked they just subtracted my union dues from my pay check.

In the early stages of industry Unions were necessary because workers were being taken advantage of and abused. However that changed, soon under union protection a man found sleeping could not be fired, or the union insisted that 6 men did what one man should easily been able to do.

I had a buddy in Cleveland that was union concrete finisher. He was required to finish 4 yards of concrete and then he could go home. He said he could finish 4 yards depending on how they poured it in little under 3 hours. So on every job the union was involved in they have about 3 guys doing the job of one. That gets expensive.

Also in Cleveland at the Motor plant the union contract said if the line went down after a certain period of time the guys had to be allowed to go home with full pay. They couldn't be given other jobs like cleaning around the plant instead.

I watched workers in a plastic plant go on strike and the company said they would have to close because they couldn't afford to meet the demands. They didn't care and after the plant closed their comment was "we showed them."

Again it wasn't all unions, many companies had situations they refused to address, safety considerations and such, until the union forced them to.

In the steel industry the stripper cranes would have to go over the soaking pits and reach in and grab an ingot of steel. Before air conditioning and all, the crane men were forced to breath all those hot gases as they raised up surrounding the crane operating pulpit. It was a killer, so the union forced the company to agree to 2 hours on 2 hours off. So in the an 8 hour day you needed at least 2 crane men. There were three cranes in this one plant. However after the perfection of air conditioning there cranes had conditioned air, filtered and cooled. In fact most were around 65 inside. The company went to the union and said we made all these improvements so we can have one craneman per crane per shift. The union said no and threatened to strike if the company forced the issue. What you don't know is the cranemen were making big big money. The got a fabulous hourly wage plus they were paid tonage. In 1965 many were making over $50,000. Ask anyone that was a super wage in 1965.

I worked in the unions and out and all I can say is when I was working without unions I didn't have to pay union dues. But i believe had there been no unions or the threat of unionization my salary and benefits would have been a lot lower. When I was working in the union I never worried about being fired, it almost could not happen.

Is that good or bad?

In your examples - do these make for good economic conditions or do they inappropriately drive up costs?

[pennview]

Recently, 13 union auto workers at Chrysler were reinstated as a result of arbitration. They had been fired after being filmed smoking dope and drinking in the parking lot while on a "lunch" break. So, Ed's statement that you can't be fired if you belong to a union is quite true. Here's more on the story -- http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... es-13.html

[fredsheldon]

I feel your pain. When I was working as a non-union programmer for The Houston Chronicle years ago I requested that my PC be moved.

Union # 1 - Unplugged my PC
Union # 2 - Raised the false ceiling tile to get to the computer cable
Union # 3 - Pulled my old cable into the false ceiling
Union # 2 - Replaced the ceiling tile.
Union # 4 - Moved my PC to a new office.
Union #'s 1,2 and 3 came back to install my PC in my new location.
Union # 5 - Reconfigured my network address.
Union # 6 - Cleaned up the mess left in my old office.

Don't even get me started on how many unions were required to put out a newspaper. (7 if I recall)

[dforeman]

I kind of get that this is a sticky subject here. Personally, I can see both the positive and negatives of Unions. Both subjects already being addressed here in safety of working conditions vs the ability to keep the job moving and working efficiently.

I actually belong to two Unions. One by choice and the other, well, not so much.

A couple of years ago, our governor signed an agreement with the State Employee's Collective Bargaining Unit (essentially the State of Maryland Employees Union) requiring that all employees (regardless of membership or not) pay dues. So, we get funds deducted from our pay whether we like it or not. Now a little in their defense, they do negotiate yearly with the governor on the budget concerning pay rates and such. But, for the most part that is really all they do.

I am also a member of the MPMO (Motion Pictures Machine Operators Local) which is part of the IATSE (International Association of Theatrical Stagehands Ensemble). I've worked on and off part time for many years now in a lot of the theatre chains around the Baltimore Area. Initially I had no intentions of joining but several years ago I was kind of screwed over by the theatre chain I worked for at the time. The local stepped in and negotiated an agreement on my behalf, so I wound up joining. But anyway, that still does not relieve the employee of competence or individual responsibility to do the work. They will work with you and help you when needed but they will also not hesitate to remove/replace you if you can't fulfill the obligations of the position or the employer (it makes the local look bad). The other thing I do like about the IATSE is that they will also strive to educate and certify their membership (certain equipment and tasks legally require certified operators) at the union’s expense. The way they perceive this is the more capable the membership is in full filling the work needed locally the better Baltimore looks as a place to do business and supply labor (sort of like having a subcontractor/temp service for each city throughout the US). And thus, removes the burden of training by the employers. Or, possibly travel if they have to ship labor in from other locations around the country. So, in essence you get something back from the local for payment of your dues (training, certification, job negotiation, and sometimes even health coverage or pension benefits). My point being, in this case you actually get something in return for being a union member and paying dues (not a guarantee that a screw up or incompetence will not get you fired).

[db5]

My first contact with the union was a miserable experience and my last contact was also miserable. The first contact was more than 50 years ago and the last one was 10 years ago. In both cases I found union employees (or those in charge) to be dictatorial and obnoxious control freaks.

1st contact - Employed as a college student in a non-right-to-work state, working construction during the summer. I had to join the union to get the job. My union dues as a flunky were the same as the most highly paid person on the job. About 20% of my weekly check went to the union.

Last contact - At the convention center in Las Vegas I needed to move some video equipment and a video projector because they were not placed where they were supposed to be. I moved them, got out my laptop and an extension cord that I always carried and plugged everything in. I was approached by some union jerk who told me that I had to put everything back like it was. I told him that it wasn't set up the way my contract required and so I moved it. He then said that I had to put it back and get a union employee to move it and that I couldn't use my own extension cord I had to use theirs. He also said that if I didn't do what he said he would make sure the power to my presentation went out.

What took me less than 10 minutes to get right took the union guys (electrical to get an extension cord and plug it in), equipment to move the video equipment, and somebody to write up a work order and get me to sign it took slightly less than 1-hour.

Frankly, I don't have a lot of sympathy for all those union employees in Las Vegas who are unemployed. Such behavior tends to bring things down on their own heads.

[qtndas01]

I am retired so I don't really care but IMHO right to work is a mistake! It gives companies the ability to shaft the workers. Pennsyalvania is a right to work state and it does NOTHING to help the workers. If you call the Labor relation board the first thing the will ask you is if you have a contract. If not, they can do nothing for you. Companies generally won't give a contract unless forced to by legal representation. The wage base between management and the workers keep widening with out representation. Its not just The CEO's. I have never belonged to a union but companies give more benefits and better wages to compete with the union companies to get better employees. I live near Mack Trucks and the former Bethlehem Steel which are union shops and we got better benefits because of it. When Bethlehem closed and Mack moved to South Carolina we went close to 10 years without a raise, not to mention no more double time for Sunday or holiday pay, OT over 8 hrs. a day, and our Medical benefits cost quadrupuled.

[pennview]

Sorry, but Pennsylvania is NOT a right-to-work state.

[joedw00]

Here is a map of the right to work states.
[ATTACH]19495[/ATTACH]

[fjimp]

I chuckled when seeing this discussion for first time. i confess to having little positive feelings for unions. My first experience was as a high school kid working as a part time dishwasher in a hospital. The unions were trying to make the hospital a new union employer. I will never forget being backed into a corner by one of the union pushers. I had a visit with my dad that night and was told not to worry about them. I only worked there a few more shifts and become so uncomfortable with their tactics I resigned. Some 15 years later I worked for a non union employer who hired a union sympathizer, the man worked there less than a day when he began promoting the need for a union vote. We had one really ugly month before the vote which was negative. you see this empoyer was already offering high wages than the union could offer, better benefits and high moral. The union sympathizer didn't even finish his last shift. He attempted to have a fight with the wrong guy (not me) and found himself in the back seat of a police cruiser. My only other contact with union politics has been thru one of my daughters who is married to a union worker. This guy is moved all over creation and his jobs start then end within a few months or years. A couple of years ago he didn't work for over a year. Sorry folks I am yet to be convinced of positive union value.

Having made that last comment I need to explain that my father did a fine job of explaining union value during the early part of the last century. He also explained his sincere concern of more recent and less than positive union practices. My Grandfather was a railroad engineer and my dad worked as a railroad detective while in law school. All of this many many years ago. The stories he told would have made a great book. Jim