Right To Work Laws

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:35 pm

Mixed 'opinion'.

As a child of a plant manager in the 40's, I grew up with a negative attitude towards unions. I observed several strikes including one particularly nasty one at which he was the only person 'allowed' to cross the picket line. There were a very few 'company' employees inside that were essentially prisoners.

I will not go into 'details', but those brave souls were in harm's way.

Since then I spent a lifetime employed by a staunchly non-union employer that I believe was successful in preventing unionization by having benefits far greater than the unions dreamed of.

More recently my 'attitude' has again changed by observation of current 'business practices' generally being exercised today.

I believe that loyalty(from both viewpoints) is no longer valued. The 'bottom line' has again risen to near the top of the priority list.

Maybe I was spoiled in the past(very fortunate for sure!), but I think 'fair' and 'reasonable' are somewhere in between the typical practices of the first half of the previous century, and the current half century.

paulmcohen · Post by **paulmcohen** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:19 am

swampgator wrote:However, Walmart has a way to skirt the minimum wage. If you are employed under 39 hours per week, you are considered part time and not given the minimum wage. They can pay you want they want. Waitresses and waiters nominally get about $3 to $4 per hour and the rest is made in tips. That's ok if you live at home with mom and dad. Not a career.

Minimum wage is per hour no matter if you work 1 hour or 100, if you work less than30 the company does not have to pay for your health insurance under ObamaCare. Paying waiters $3-$4 per hour is what is called tip credit. The employer can credit your salary for a percent of expected tips, the expected tips are added to the hourly wage, they pay don't not exceed the minimum wage the employer has to make up the difference. Oregon does not have a tip credit and waiters make much more than a living wage but we pay more to eat at restaurants and they generally have less staff than the same restaurant in other states (so we have high unemployment among unskilled labor). My future daughter in law works at a national chain and would make $50K as a waitress if she worked 40 hours, because of ObamaCare she is only allowed to work 27 hours and makes significantly less.

rjn2649 · Post by **rjn2649** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:33 am

Wage laws change from state to state, there are exeptions in Il that allow employers not to pay the minumum, farm workers, I think some temp jobs, and I think for up to the first 90 days of employment, as far as Obama care...Part timers didn't get insurance coverage long before Obama( I still dont like him, but thats a different thread....)
I have never been impressed with unions, and always felt it best to do my own wage talks.
I will say (at least here) unions do offer the best education and training. But also I've met the biggest jerks that didn't know anything more than a connected uncle that got them a position.
But this IS CHICAGO after all....remeber where Obama said he learned everything about politics?

skou · Post by **skou** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:22 pm

OK, here are 2 personal stories, one is my own experience and the other is the garbage men in Hawaii.

I worked at Mcdonnell-Douglas, in Long Beach, building the MD-11. As a condition of hiring, I had to join (or pay dues to ) UAW local 148. The ONLY thing the union did for me, was to relieve my the duty of spending an amount to 1 hour a week. After almost 2 years, the company experienced layoffs. Seniority, not job quality was the deciding terminating policy, and I was gone.

When I lived in Hawaii (Oahu) I found out how the trash collectors were paid. They had a set route, and were paid 8 hours for completing that daily route. Most of them took 2.5 to 3 hours. Nepotism and cronyism was the name of the game, and having a family member in that union, was GOLD in the bank. Dad (uncle, brother-in-law, whatever) got your name to the top of the LONG list.

Some guys had 3 jobs. 2 shifts with the garbage account, and a third part-time job. Some guys even worked a whole 8 hours a day.

My third comment, this Right to work law, does NOT forbid ANYONE joining a union. The situation gets bad enough, employees will organize.

steve

skou · Post by **skou** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:26 pm

AFSCME!

Really?

OK, here we are. This union negotiates with the municipality, (town, county, state, or the feds) They work out an agreement.

Now, someone who WAS NOT at that negotiation table, pays the bill! See any conflict of interest here?

steve

swampgator · Post by **swampgator** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:47 pm

Minimum wage is not paid to workers in Walmart, Target and other retailers as it is a state rule. Too many workers have quit those store because as the state law is used, if you do not work more than 39 hours per week, you are temporary or part time. So, minimum wages do not apply to either part time or temp employees. Local hospitals also use this rule for their food preps, house cleaning and other employees. My son and his wife worked at a local popular bar where no one recieved minimum wage. You can believe that they know the law as the owners also have a very successful law firm here. So, it has nothing to do with the Affordable Health care Act or who is President.

Another story from 1981, as a federal worker in Dept. of the Navy rework for aircraft, we hired many temps who worked 39 hours per week, did NOT get minimum wage, no paid time off, no paid holiday, fired each Sept 1 and rehired each Oct 1. No retirement, no insurance. And, we kept many of those employees for years. Those employees hoped for a chance to be hired as a permanent employee. At leaste, the supervisors knew the people working and their work ethic.

At the same time, saw a few federal employees fired because of poor attendance or performance. Just more food for thought.

dforeman · Post by **dforeman** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:26 pm

paulmcohen wrote:The problem with what you describe is government unions, where the union dues are used to keep the people in power they bargain with. This is what government workers now make substantially more then private workers and have better benefits and retirement packages and the government (city, state and federal) is going broke. The cost of these lavish benefits are not paid by the current officials they negotiate with but some distant time in the future. Everything being discussed is why private union membership is the lowest since record keeping and government unions is the highest.

Paul, at one time that may have been true. However, times have changed and that is no longer the case. Actually here in Maryland, government pay rates (State and City) have lost their competitive edge for attracting a talented work force. So much, that we are now loosing a lot of valuable folks and talent to the private sector. Yes we do get a fairly good benefit package. However, do to the fact that the cost of benefits keep going up and the state every year keeps wanting us to pay more for those benefits out of pocket kind of negates what I would even consider lavish. And, state employees have not received across the board raises in over 10 years now (with the exception of a select few promotoins here and there). About the only benefit I see working for a government agency right now (again at least here in Maryland) is the amount of leave we receive. It takes several years to build up but once you've been employed 20+ years, we do get a decent amount of leave time. But, by no means is anybody going to get rich working for the State of Maryland or one of its jurisdictions.

The problem with governments agencies going broke really falls soly on mismanagement and bad decisions on how funds are used by our elected officials. One official gets into office and wants to leave his mark with this project or that project just to have the next one come along four years later and completely undo everything for their own projects and decisions in order to leave their mark. I see a lot of wasted energy and tax dollars all the time just because of this dilema. But, in reality it is just the nature of how our governmental system works. Five or six years ago my local county council purchased a piece of commercial property to expand the police station. I seem to remember they paid 1.2/1.3 million for the property. The next election we had a turn around in the council and they decided to change the master plan for the town which included a police station in a different location. A couple of weeks ago they just sold the previous mentioned property for $200,000 saying how we just had no use for it. Now I do realise property values have gone down. But that is a huge drop in value and a complete waste/mismanagement of our tax dollars.

I think Ed hit the nail on the head with his comments about integrity and Dusty's observation about different experiences.

terrydowning · Post by **terrydowning** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:45 pm

paulmcohen wrote:I don't believe anyone is forced to join the union, in non-right-to-work states you are force to pay union dues even if you don't belong.

My wife did not have an option when she was hired into the school district where she is currently employed. She had to join the union or don't take the job. Technically I suppose this is still optional no one is forced to work there I guess, but still...

paulmcohen · Post by **paulmcohen** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:29 am

terrydowning wrote:My wife did not have an option when she was hired into the school district where she is currently employed. She had to join the union or don't take the job. Technically I suppose this is still optional no one is forced to work there I guess, but still...

I don't believe you are completely correct thought they may have told your wife that. She was required to pay but she should have been able to pay the money somewhere else and did not actually have to become a member of the union but they would have made her life miserable if she did not.

major_bob · Post by **major_bob** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:10 am

swampgator wrote:Minimum wage is not paid to workers in Walmart, Target and other retailers as it is a state rule. Too many workers have quit those store because as the state law is used, if you do not work more than 39 hours per week, you are temporary or part time. So, minimum wages do not apply to either part time or temp employees. Local hospitals also use this rule for their food preps, house cleaning and other employees. My son and his wife worked at a local popular bar where no one recieved minimum wage. You can believe that they know the law as the owners also have a very successful law firm here. So, it has nothing to do with the Affordable Health care Act or who is President.

Another story from 1981, as a federal worker in Dept. of the Navy rework for aircraft, we hired many temps who worked 39 hours per week, did NOT get minimum wage, no paid time off, no paid holiday, fired each Sept 1 and rehired each Oct 1. No retirement, no insurance. And, we kept many of those employees for years. Those employees hoped for a chance to be hired as a permanent employee. At leaste, the supervisors knew the people working and their work ethic.

At the same time, saw a few federal employees fired because of poor attendance or performance. Just more food for thought.

I'm sorry but after doing a bit of research the only exceptions I can find to Florida minimum wage applies to: "Under 20 year olds" which may be paid at a training wage for the first 90 days. "Students" which applies to high school and college students working part time (85% of minimum wage for up to 20 hours). "Tipped employees" which allows tips to be added to the hourly wage to ensure the minimum is met (if not the wage is raised to meet the minimum).

I can find no Florida state law (which would be in violation of federal law) which allows any retailer (such as WalMart or Target) to pay less than the minimum hourly wage. If Swampgator can cite the actual regulation that allows this, then I will gladly offer my humble apologises in advance.