Incra Products

[woodburner]

Hi Charlese,

The way the Incra Ultra Fence works is quite different than the regular SS fence.
The fence actually rides in a carriage that is attached to a floating table. Each time you place the Incra fence on the SS you can (and should) zero out the fence by bringing the fence up against the blade. You can then do a rough zero alignment, and then (this is where the Incra fence really shines) you use the micro adjuster to bring in the fence to the blade until it is just touching an outside tooth on the blade. You then lock the fence down and then move the ruler(s), that are held to the incra carriage with a magnet strip, to zero (or another measurement on the ruler you prefer) under the cursor.
Of course you will want your SS saw table and miter slots to be aligned with the blade for any type of cuts you are making using any kind of fence or miter gauge. But with the Incra fence, you can actually fudge on that a little. Because the Incra fence is attached to a floating table, you can also adjust the alignment somewhat by loosening the connector tubes (the fence comes with the 5-foot connector tubes and those are the ones recommended to use) and tapping the floating table until the blade is contacting both the infeed and outfeed sides of the blade. You then lock down the floating table and use the fence's adjustment system to do the final calibration. You can get away with this because the the Incra fence actually floats on the table's rails and does not clamp down onto the saw table.
I actually tested the accuracy of the fence with digital calipers. I zeroed out the Inra fence rulers as I wrote above. I used my dail set-up gauge to check the flatness of my blade to make sure it was attached and aligned to my SS as well as it could be. I then moved my Inra fence back the width of the wood (6 inches), and then moved the fence forward 3/32" (kerf of the blade) and using the micro adjuster moved it forward another 001."
I was able to rip, or shave, a less-than-paper-thin piece off of my test piece, and I was able to do this over-and-over by using the micro adjuster.
I measured the test pieces using digital calipers and each piece came out nearly perfect. What I mean by nearly perfect is that no saw blade is perfectly flat, and this is what was reflected in the test cuts. All-in-all, the test pieces measured more than above average as being .001" thick.
So yes, it is possible to rip cut wood .001" thick, though I see no point in needing stock this thin. What it is great for is making precise cuts for you projects. And if you need to shave off just that little bit to make a piece fit, or several pieces fit, you can't beat this Incra system.
And did you know you can also shave off .001" during crosscuts using the Incra Miter 2000 and Mitersled 5000. Using the Incra Shop Stop that attaches to both of these systems, you can move the stop forward and back using the micro-screw and the rulers attached to these fences as a guide. I've tested these systems too and are as dead-on accurate as the Incra fence.
Of course, the saw table needs to be in alignment. But it should be for any type of accurate cuts anyway.

[charlese]

That's good stuff, woodburner! I guess, it's just that I'd rather do that by eye and hand, without the adjusting screws. In the past, I have ripped edge trim that was about 1/32" (.03") wide, but it was too thin, so had to make some a bit thicker, glue would have come through the edging. This is close to the thickness of the outer veneer in cheaper plywood. (The stuff from China has red glue that shows through oak plywood.

Recently, I was able to trim about 1/164" (.0078") from the shoulders of tenons to get rid of some rough grain, but that's as close as I can go with a table saw by hand and eye. To get closer is, in my opinion, fruitless. Goodness, dead on accuracy (the width of a sharp pencil or scratch line can be achieved with hand, eye and standard equipment. Why try to divide this fine line?

I must say, If the Incra gives enough security to woodworkers to continue pursuing their hobby, where otherwise they would not - then I'm all for it! I just don't agree with the need for the claimed accuracy! To set to the nearest .001" - I have to say, "So What?"

I really believe that to trim .001" from the end of a board, would not produce a discernible amount of sawdust - however, it would shave some fibers and bend others over a bit and many of them would spring back. To me, .001" is useless in cutting or milling wood. It may be equal to a couple of strokes with fine sand paper, but really - a person cannot see the difference, unless under a washing light.

A difference of .001 on half of an end cut would produce a shadow line. A snipe of .001" from a thickness planer also produces a shadow, but is sometimes hard to find. Finger tips or viewing under a washing light are the best ways! Such snipe can be very easily sanded out.

Would a difference of .001" in a project produce an out of square product? Maybe, if the product is small enough and the user really particular, however a little sandpaper can make it square. This is my point. To demand and accuracy of the nearest one thousandths of an inch is, in my estimation a whole lot of over-kill.

We gotta remember we are working with wood! This is a substance who's volume can be changed by adding or subtracting water vapor. Wood is always changing size, it is always under some type of stress. To understand the physiology of wood is to is to love its unique qualities - each piece is truly unique - and should be treated as such. To not do so, often results in unforeseen results. To treat wood as a solid structure such as plastic or metal is a mistake often made by equipment manufacturers and their customers (woodworkers) as well. (It's the Economy) However, the marketing is superb! Trying to machine wood to a thousandths of an inch is a goal that may produce pieces that accurate, when first cut, but this accuracy will not last very long. The wood itself will resist such accuracy. So my question is WHY?

[dusty]

charlese, why do you have a pin router? Why not just do it all with a good set of hand tools?

[ryanbp01]

With the Incra products, I am not sure the cost justifies the results with what can be achieved with what is already provided by Shopsmith. What would be the advantages and what are the disadvantages of the Incra system over the Pro-Fence system? Also, since I have the availability of both Rockler and Woodcraft within a few miles of each other, why not just purchase the system locally? Some enlightenment on this subject would definitely be appreciated.

BPR

[charlese]

charlese, why do you have a pin router? Why not just do it all with a good set of hand tools?

Whoops! I think we are hi-jacking a bit here, but here are some of the reasons. There are probably thousands of them - First, the pin router is magnitudes less expensive than a good set of hand tools that will let me accomplish the same things.

To make or buy a hand plane and plane iron to make ogees would by itself almost equal the cost of a OPR. Then there is the potential cost of plow planes etc. In the real old days, craftsmen did this by hand, but they had many more skills than we. I once knew a guy in Montana that when he wanted a new iron shape (molder knifes), he simply made it. I just don't have those skills, nor the machinery to do that.

I even shelled out for a Shopsmith Mark V 510 which is good enough for me. Isn't that what we all do? Get the tools that allow us to do the work we want to do?

My major point of the above posts was supposed to be - - it is bordering on futility to seriously believe that WOOD, cut to tolerances of thousandths of inches is more accurate than wood cut to tolerances of 64ths (hundredths) of inches. My university studies, (major in forest management and minor in 'wood technology') and over 50 years of experience working with wood, and wood product's industries, bring me to that conclusion.

[Ed in Tampa]

Charlese
I think the real draw to INCRA aside from the acclaimed accuracy is the ability to repeat setups. Since the fence has a positive indent at each setting if you place the fence back to that setting the cut has to be repeated exactly.

However I think on SS since the Headstock with the blade and the tables move you lose the ability to completely tear down and set back up exactly.

I made those comments in reference to the Incra rip fence setup.

As for Incra mitre guage I think the main point here is the ablity to have positive detents as each angle. However with the onset of digital mitre gauges even this may lose much of its appeal.

However I'm more or less in your corner. I believe the accuracy obtained with normal setup tools, tape measures, angle gauges, etc is close enough for woodworking.

I'm from the old school, if the fence has a rip scale or not I still use a rule to set my fence. If the I have the world's most accurate mitre or not I still use my adjustable gauge to check my mitre setting. Most of all I use the try it and see. Almost every cut is tested for fit before I lock in either my fence or my mitre guage. I also use story sticks, and templates more and more.
Ed

[woodburner]

Ryan wrote...
What would be the advantages and what are the disadvantages of the Incra system over the Pro-Fence system? Also, since I have the availability of both Rockler and Woodcraft within a few miles of each other, why not just purchase the system locally?

A couple of good questions. Now, I'm not trying to sell anyone the Incra System. This thread actually started out asking those who have one if they like the Incra products they purchased.

But, if you want to know why I prefer it over any of the other SS fences, here goes:
1. Accuracy, Accuracy, Accuracy
2. Repeatability, Repeatability, Repeatability

Definition for # 1 above:
For dead-on measurements when cutting, this fence system can do it. To be able to dial in your measurement to .001" is mighty incredible for a table saw fence. Can't do that with any of the standard SS fences, including the pro-fence. That is why SS sells the Incra fence. So those of us who expect and need that kind of accuaracy can get it.

Definition for #2 above:
Ever tried to get the same exact cut after moving your fence and then putting it back to it's original position. Can't do that with the standard SS fences. The standard fences will always be off a little no matter what. With the Incra fence you can move the fence from one cut, to another, and back again to the exact same position. This fence actually uses very fine laser cut teeth that mesh together when you lock the fence carriage. Even if after moving the fence back to the original position and you're off just a little, when you lock it down you can actually see the teeth move/place the fence into its proper place. And even then, you can use the micro-adjuster to adjust it even finer if need be.

For going to Rockler or Woodcraft to buy the system, you can't. The Incra system that SS sells is built to fit the SS machine. The models you can purchase at the woodworking stores do not match the SS table measurments, miter slots, or rails. The models the stores sell are made to fit Powermatic, Delta, and other types of free-standing table saws, and not the SS.

As for disadvantages, haven't discovered one yet. Only problem I found, and found a solution for, is storing the fence when not in use. I made a couple of brackets so I can hang it on the shop wall while not in use. And it's no harder to put on and take off than a floating table.

Don't get me wrong everyone. I still use my 510 fence for general rip cuts and the SS miter gauge too. I have built many a great project using these fine items. I found that the more advanced I have become as a fine woodworker, and the projects I want to create have become more intricate, I needed a system I could use to grow into the next level of my woodworking experiences. That is why when I purchased my Incra products from SS, I looked at it as an investment towards my woodworking future. Not something I had to have just to have it.

Hope this answers some of your questions Ryan.

[woodburner]

Hi Everyone,

This thread started out asking those who have purchased any Incra products for their SS how they like them.
It seems this thread has gotten away from that and it sounds like some folks thought I was putting them down for not having any Incra products.
That is not the case. I just wanted to know how fellow SS owners like, or don't like, the Incra products.
I like having, and enjoy using, all of my SS add-ons (fences, miter guage, etc). I still use them to this day. The safety grip on the miter gauge can't be beat from a safety stand-point.
I feel my woodworking has gotten to the point that the accuracy the Incra products provide me in the creation of my woodworking projects, and I as a woodworker as a whole, is an investment in my woodworking future.
If you feel you don't need them, that is great too. Some of you though have made it sound as if I wasted my money in my investment, but I don't see it that way.
I can see the accuracy in my projects that these tools provide when I compare them to past projects made without these tools, even though most people cannot. That is because I created the project, so my eye for detail catches any little flaw that might be there and I remember where I might have fudged this or that so the project would come together. I don't see these flaws much anymore.
This thread was not intended to try and sell Incra products, or put anyone down for not having them. Sorry if any of you took it that way.

[dusty]

My question was rhetorical and did not deserve an answer.

The reason any one of us has what we have is because that is what we want.

I spend my money the way I want; I suspect that you guys all do the same. What I build does not demand the degree of accuracy or the repeatability that Incra provides. Therefore, I spend my money elsewhere (until the requirement changes).

Yes, we are off topic again. Something that I really dislike. Thank you, Woodburner, for telling me so.

[Ed in Tampa]

[quote="dusty"]My question was rhetorical and did not deserve an answer.

The reason any one of us has what we have is because that is what we want.

I spend my money the way I want]

Dusty
I don't think the thread went off track. I see your questions is a lot like iron sharpening iron. I think we need to be able to justify our decisions to know we made them for sound reasons not just following the crowd.

When I think if Incra and SS I think of using it primarily with the saw function. I never think of it when used with a router table. So I viewed most of the comments from a sawing perspective even though the thread was based on routing.

I think by some of this bantering back and forth opened my eyes to uses of the incra jigs I just hadn't considered. So to me getting a little off track was good.

Also I find a this give and take to be very helpful. I to me if the question was simply "what you think" and the standard answer was "I think it is great" would serve little purpose. I like to get many opinions both pro and con and make my decisions based on all the points.

Dusty I think you and what you accuse yourself of doing is just what the forum needs from time to time. So I thank you.
Ed