Sheave alignment & a grounding question

[Cavediver]

I've finally put the motor pan back on to my '56 greenie, and have installed a HF link style belt. The center line of the sheaves on the idler shaft seem to be about 1/2 forward of the motor sheaves, which causes a bit of distortion / flexing in the drive belt. Is this normal, or have I somehow installed the motor incorrectly? I've reviewed the connections and mounting points several times and don't see how the latter is possible, but thought I'd ask just in case...

Further info: The idler shaft bearing is centered in the eccentric bushing with the standard conical set-screw. The eccentric bushing is set at about 9 o'clock to tension the gilmer belt, and is set back into the casting by about 3/16" to help keep the gilmer belt off of the edge of the quill shaft.


Part II: Grounding
I need to ground the motor to headstock casting, but am not finding a good area to do so. Can I use a crimp-on loop and a nut to attach the grounding wire to the rear motor pan fastener (one of the five screws that attach the motor pan to the headstock)?

Thanks!

[JPG]

I've finally put the motor pan back on to my '56 greenie, and have installed a HF link style belt. The center line of the sheaves on the idler shaft seem to be about 1/2 forward of the motor sheaves, which causes a bit of distortion / flexing in the drive belt. Is this normal, or have I somehow installed the motor incorrectly? I've reviewed the connections and mounting points several times and don't see how the latter is possible, but thought I'd ask just in case...

Further info: The idler shaft bearing is centered in the eccentric bushing with the standard conical set-screw. The eccentric bushing is set at about 9 o'clock to tension the gilmer belt, and is set back into the casting by about 3/16" to help keep the gilmer belt off of the edge of the quill shaft.


Part II: Grounding
I need to ground the motor to headstock casting, but am not finding a good area to do so. Can I use a crimp-on loop and a nut to attach the grounding wire to the rear motor pan fastener (one of the five screws that attach the motor pan to the headstock)?

Thanks!

Run the line cord grounding screw to the motor and quit there. That is what SS currently does.

If you want to be assured the rest of the external surfaces are 'grounded' use external tooth lock washers between painted mating parts where screwed together starting at the motor/pan mounting screws and pan/headstock casting screws. Stop when you tire of this exercise!;)

I really consider it overkill.

[JPG]

The belt/pulley misalignment is not totally understood(by me).

I cannot envision installing the motor incorrectly in the motor pan, nor the motor pan to the headstock casting. IIRC, you replaced the fan sheave/motor spacer. Did the spacer go on the motor shaft and go into the end casting so the spacer rests against the bearing center race? I cannot see that causing that much misalignment, but it could contribute to it if the motor pulley is spaded too far out on the shaft.

Do keep in mind the direction the movable sheaves move. The control sheave moves to the 'right'(in/out) as viewed from the power switch side of the headstock. The floating sheave moves 'left'(out/in). When the control sheave is adjusted(towards high speed as an example) the control sheave moves away from the opposite flange(opens to the right) and the spring tension on the floating sheave pushes the floating sheave closed(also to the right). The (temporary) center line of the pulleys move in the same direction(right). One flange of each pulley remains 'stationary' and remain equidistant(horizontally parallel to the shafts) from each other.

So do determine 'center' of pulleys at a given speed setting(with belt on) and measure from a reference point to the center of the belt.(the mating 'v' part of the pulleys is inaccessible).

Now the Gilmer belt can get frustrating. Do you have the older idler bearing retaining clips? Common sense(wrong though) says to place the long finger towards and over the bearing. That makes it interfere with the belt. The smaller finger retains(sorta) the bearing.

Bill Mayo prefers throwing those pesky clips in the spare parts bin(or alternative receptacle) and drilling and tapping a hole for a screw and fender washer. FWIW that is the current approach by SS(they even added a second screw/washer!).

Last but not least is the gilmer pulley on the upper shaft. It 'can' slip/slide on the shaft if the set screw is loose.

The center pointy screw positions/retains the bearing to the eccentric, and the clips and screws are to position the eccentric(with bearing).



So whatca got?

That is all I have to offer sans pix of yer stuff or additional info.



P.S. Then there is the torque limiting clutch variation on the upper pulley!

[Cavediver]

Re: Grounding
I'd like for the upper casting to be grounded as well as the motor pan. Your point about getting a good connection between the two using the lock washers is a good one, though it's probably overkill as you said. However, since I have some of those lock washers at the house, I might just toss them in line anyhow. Thanks for that idea!

Re: Pulleys
The motor spacer is present and accounted for, and the fan sheave is tight to it.
I understand the entire belt shifts left and right depending on speed. In an ideal world, all shafts would be parallel to the floor, and the floating centerline of that belt would be perpendicular to the floor. In my case, that belt is about 3-4 degrees off of perpendicular. Does that description help?
Beyond that, I'm at a loss to describe how far out of alignment things appear to be. I'll try to take some pictures this evening. At the moment, the headstock is upside down on saw horses, so I've got a pretty good view of everything.

I've got a gilmer clutch up top. The eccentric bushing does not have clips holding it in place, only a screw with washer on the outside. I reviewed the Bill Mayo method of adding a capture screw to the inside. However, with the headstock casting clamped down on the eccentric, I can't see that being really necessary. I'll look that one over this evening as well, and perhaps drill and tap it out before putting the rest of this beast back together. Rather safe than sorry, I heart Overkill, etc.

Pics to follow when I get home!

Thanks for your help,
Jay

[billmayo]

Re: Pulleys
The motor spacer is present and accounted for, and the fan sheave is tight to it.
I understand the entire belt shifts left and right depending on speed. In an ideal world, all shafts would be parallel to the floor, and the floating centerline of that belt would be perpendicular to the floor. In my case, that belt is about 3-4 degrees off of perpendicular. Does that description help?
Beyond that, I'm at a loss to describe how far out of alignment things appear to be. I'll try to take some pictures this evening. At the moment, the headstock is upside down on saw horses, so I've got a pretty good view of everything.

I've got a gilmer clutch up top. The eccentric bushing does not have clips holding it in place, only a screw with washer on the outside. I reviewed the Bill Mayo method of adding a capture screw to the inside. However, with the headstock casting clamped down on the eccentric, I can't see that being really necessary. I'll look that one over this evening as well, and perhaps drill and tap it out before putting the rest of this beast back together. Rather safe than sorry, I heart Overkill, etc.

Pics to follow when I get home!

Thanks for your help,
Jay

You need the clamps or the screw and washer to keep the eccentric bushing and idler shaft from exiting the rear of the headstock. The bolt and nut that holds the eccentric bushing is mainly to keep it from turning and loosen the upper belt. It will not keep the idler shaft inside the headstock by itself. In every case where the clamps or eccentric washer and screw was missing, the idler shaft had come part way out of the headstock and destroyed the upper belt.

The motor belt is normally misaligned most of the time which can cause some additional noise and vibration. With the Reeves Drive system that Shopsmith uses, only when the speed is set at its mid range point will the belt aligned in the center of the upper and lower sheaves. The belt will move forward or backward as it goes up and down on the Sheave vanes. Since the control sheave goes forward and the motor floating sheave goes backward, you will have more motor belt misalignment going toward each end of the speed range. When adapting the Mark VII motor to the Mark V headstock, I had to make motor mounts so the belt would be centered on the sheaves only at the mid speed range point. The mid range point was where the upper and lower sheave rims was the same distance apart.

[Cavediver]

Well, I think it's problem (that existed only in my head) solved. I found the belt that arrived with the unit and used it instead of the link belt.

FYI, for anyone using a HF link belt on a '56 Greenie, 32 links seem to be the correct length.

After spinning back and forth I finally decided it wasn't nearly as bad as I originally thought. The "out-of-line is the norm" comments helped sway my decision, so I tightened everything up, wired the switch (do this before putting the motor pan on next time...), and hit the power.

IT'S ALIVE!!!!

And a bit scary.

Oh, and the off side of the power switch doesn't work. Lol. It worked fine while out of the Shopsmith, and the power didn't come on when I plugged it in for the first time, but now it won't shut off.

Did I mention scary?

I've got the sanding disk attached to help spin the belts while running the speed up and down (while powered down). That thing puts off a little noise and more than a little wind. I'm no stranger to most shop tools; my job for the last fifteen years or so has revolved around drafting and building stuff in a wood shop. The Shopsmith is a bit more intimidating than any of the tools I use on a daily basis...

There's a lot of vibration, especially at low speed. I hope this is due to the old drive belt; I'm going to put the link belt back in when I fix the switch. Also, the headstock is on the two support tubes, but those are just clamped to the top of a pair of sawhorses while the rest of the paint dries.


Anyhow...
Thanks for the answers guys.
Bill, I'm not sure how you managed to drill and tap the hole for the bushing keeper inside of that headstock, but I guess I'll find out soon enough.

The bushing is currently set back into the headstock by 1/8" or so; can I set it back a bit further to give the gilmer belt a little more clearance on the top pulley, or do I need to trade out the pointed set-screw for a flat one and move the shaft/bearing back a little, leaving the eccentric flush at the front?

Thanks again for all of your help! I could never have made it this far without it.
Jay M

[JPG]

. . .

There's a lot of vibration, especially at low speed. I hope this is due to the old drive belt]Belt dressing will soften up an old belt that has taken a 'set'.[/B]


Anyhow...
Thanks for the answers guys.
Bill, I'm not sure how you managed to drill and tap the hole for the bushing keeper inside of that headstock, but I guess I'll find out soon enough.

I assume a die cast headstock since no 'clips'. Drill carefully!

The bushing is currently set back into the headstock by 1/8" or so; can I set it back a bit further to give the gilmer belt a little more clearance on the top pulley, or do I need to trade out the pointed set-screw for a flat one and move the shaft/bearing back a little, leaving the eccentric flush at the front? DON'T

Thanks again for all of your help! I could never have made it this far without it.
Jay M

I think you may have missed my point regarding the fan sheave spacer. The motor end should press against the inner bearing race(i.e. it extends into the motor end cap).

The in/out movement of the belt as speed is varied is caused by the different amount of movement of the sheaves at different speed settings. When a belt is near the middle(shaft), the belt running circumference is smaller so the 'slack' changes are smaller compared to the same sheave movement when the running circumference is greater. I am not happy with this 'description' , but is what I came up with tonight.

Placing the eccentric into the casting is not as I recall required.

Pix of both ends of the belt may reveal 'all'.(?)

[billmayo]

Well, I think it's problem (that existed only in my head) solved. I found the belt that arrived with the unit and used it instead of the link belt.

FYI, for anyone using a HF link belt on a '56 Greenie, 32 links seem to be the correct length.

After spinning back and forth I finally decided it wasn't nearly as bad as I originally thought. The "out-of-line is the norm" comments helped sway my decision, so I tightened everything up, wired the switch (do this before putting the motor pan on next time...), and hit the power.

IT'S ALIVE!!!!

And a bit scary.

Oh, and the off side of the power switch doesn't work. Lol. It worked fine while out of the Shopsmith, and the power didn't come on when I plugged it in for the first time, but now it won't shut off.

Did I mention scary?

I've got the sanding disk attached to help spin the belts while running the speed up and down (while powered down). That thing puts off a little noise and more than a little wind. I'm no stranger to most shop tools]any[/I] of the tools I use on a daily basis...

There's a lot of vibration, especially at low speed. I hope this is due to the old drive belt; I'm going to put the link belt back in when I fix the switch. Also, the headstock is on the two support tubes, but those are just clamped to the top of a pair of sawhorses while the rest of the paint dries.


Anyhow...
Thanks for the answers guys.
Bill, I'm not sure how you managed to drill and tap the hole for the bushing keeper inside of that headstock, but I guess I'll find out soon enough.

The bushing is currently set back into the headstock by 1/8" or so; can I set it back a bit further to give the gilmer belt a little more clearance on the top pulley, or do I need to trade out the pointed set-screw for a flat one and move the shaft/bearing back a little, leaving the eccentric flush at the front?

Thanks again for all of your help! I could never have made it this far without it.
Jay M

You want to keep the Gilmer belt just off the shoulder of the drive sleeve clutch when manually rotating the quill in its proper direction, not in the reverse direction. I use the Gilmer eccentric bushing clamps and eccentric bolt to hold them, no nut. The eccentric bushing slot is down with no belt tighten at this time. This is more important than the misalignment of the motor belt. Most times(90% or better), the Gilmer eccentric bushing clamps will do this properly. When I find that the Gilmer belt wants to ride up on the shoulder of the drive sleeve clutch, you can see the belt slighly budging again this shoulder, I will remove the clamps and drill and tap for 3/4" OD washer and screw above the eccentric bushing. Then I set the eccentric bushing againest the washer and move the idler shaft bearing into the eccentric bushing checking where the belt is riding. Once the belt is slighly off the shoulder, I tighten the krunled set screw and then tighen the belt with the eccentric bushing. I leave about a 1/16" to 1/8" deflection in the Gilmer belt. I found the Shopsmith Gilmer belt tightening method appears too tight to me and has caused strange/unique noises to appear when operating.

I quit using the pointed set screw many years ago and went with 1/4" long 5/16" krunled point set screw. The original idler shaft bearing had a groove in the center that the pointed set screw fitted into but later idler shaft bearings had no groove. When using the pointed set screw on this later flat surface bearing, you could deform the bearing casing and get a slight ticking noise which I am sure was not good for the bearing. The krunled point set screw works very well with the later idler shaft flat bearing surface. I use these krunled point set screws in almost all location with set screws in the Shopsmith. I may have to file a shaft to remove the burrs sometimes if I have to remove this set screw but a small price to pay for having a secured set screw. Not had one come loose yet.

[Cavediver]

I think you may have missed my point regarding the fan sheave spacer. The motor end should press against the inner bearing race(i.e. it extends into the motor end cap).

I understood, assuming we're talking about the same part. It's purpose is to keep the fan sheave from sliding back towards the motor housing and rubbing on the motor mount, correct? If so, it's in there and working. The backside of the fan sheave has about 1/8" of clearance between it and the motor.

Placing the eccentric into the casting is not as I recall required.

Pix of both ends of the belt may reveal 'all'.(?)

I've taken a few pictures and will need to upload them tomorrow. Hopefully they'll be what we need...

[JPG]

I understood, assuming we're talking about the same part. It's purpose is to keep the fan sheave from sliding back towards the motor housing and rubbing on the motor mount, correct? If so, it's in there and working. The backside of the fan sheave has about 1/8" of clearance between it and the motor. Sounds good!



I've taken a few pictures and will need to upload them tomorrow. Hopefully they'll be what we need...

BTW do you have an "A" or a "B" headstock casting?