Mark VII as a router table

Jack Wilson · Post by **Jack Wilson** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:10 pm

True if, if the need arises, it is nice to have the option.

benush26 · Post by **benush26** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:03 pm

harveydunn wrote:
Also, can the Incra LS fence for the table saw be used for the "router table" as well?

Can I presume you mean the TS-LS fence? If so, the answer is a qualified yes. To effectively use a fence on a router you want one that can be split. To obtain the split function you might want to add the Wonder fence to the TS-LS. The TS-LS is one solid extrusion. One of the benefits to a split fence is to bury a bit in the leading sacrificial fence. That gives great support to the work piece. The Wonder fence additionally allows the outfeed side to extend out. That means if the bit removes so much that the outfeed would not normally touch (support) the work piece, that adjustment allows support.

You can have a one piece sacrificial fence with areas removed for the bit. They work okay, but IMHO, are too fussy and fiddley. You can also make two piece sacrificial fences and use a solid fence t-slots for attachment and get good results. But without the ability to reliably push out the outfeed piece, you lose safety.
All this means you do NOT "have" to have the split, but it makes life easier and keeps fingers safer.

With all of the above, you can see why SS packages the TS-LS, with a router table, Wonder fence and the right angle piece. However, It is pricey!

even on sale!

Making a table into a router table can be done. A recent posting has one member taking a 510 table and making a bracket to hold a conventional router from underneath. {Steve, if you read this when you get back, maybe you can point him to your posting}. Currently I plan to take a used 510 or 520 table and remove enough from the top to accommodate a conventional router plate, thereby using the saw table top as a conventional router table. And yes, I plan to use the TS-LS with a wonder fence on that.

For the cost of the Incra fence and modifying a saw table you can buy a NICE router table with split fence and router and bits and go out for a nice dinner and .... lots more. In my case, space for a router table large enough to handle my needs is a significant drawback. The expansion of a SS table system makes it ideal for me.

I have a signicantly on going use for the accuracy of the Incra fence (I even found a way to use the table saw micro adjust to hopefully eliminate the Incra fence, but time versus utility caused the Incra system to be better) and limited space for larger router tables. For me the cost of of the Incra fence and additional goodies plus modifying the 510/520 table is worth it.

Long winded answer, yes, you can use the Incra fence for a router setup. But, is the time, space, utility, cost benefit analysis pointing in favor of what you want to do? Frankly if the cost of modifying an existing 510/520 table gets close to the cost of the Shopsmith designed router table, I'll probably abandon the modification design and just save up for the "already works" table.

The wonderful thing about a Shopsmith is in all it's forms is that it is a timeless customer configurable Swiss Army knife. If you want something not off the rack, design what you want. Chances are someone has already been down that path. This is a great place to ask. Nearly every path has been explored and if it hasn't, you have a great bunch to help guide the way!

Be well,
Ben

harveydunn · Post by **harveydunn** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:08 am

Thanks. I'm actually planning to buy a new Mark 7. And yes the Incra stuff is expensive, but it will also be expensive if I buy it for a stand-alone table.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:51 am

harveydunn wrote:Thanks. I'm actually planning to buy a new Mark 7. And yes the Incra stuff is expensive, but it will also be expensive if I buy it for a stand-alone table.

You asked about an under the table Router Table being available for the Mark 7. Yes there is one. This is what I have but I use it in conjunction with my Crafters Station which has been upgraded with 520 rails.

Here is a router table that cares not whether you have a 510, 520 or PowerPro. It works well with all of them.

harveydunn · Post by **harveydunn** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:01 am

Maybe I've been unclear. What I want to know is if on the Mark 7 there is not just a router table, but one wherein the SS powerplant is actually serving as the router motor. I'm not interested in a table that supports a hand held router - if I were going to go that route, I'd get a stand-alone table.

BuckeyeDennis · Post by **BuckeyeDennis** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:43 am

harveydunn wrote:Maybe I've been unclear. What I want to know is if on the Mark 7 there is not just a router table, but one wherein the SS powerplant is actually serving as the router motor. I'm not interested in a table that supports a hand held router - if I were going to go that route, I'd get a stand-alone table.

Yes, with the double-tilt base, the headstock can go vertically underneath the table and function as an undertable router. I saw a demo of this at Lowes a while back, and it took a huge cut off of a piece of hardwood in a single pass with no complaint.

With a top speed of 10,000 RPM and tons of torque, it's well suited for big bits, such as panel-raising bits. (Some would consider this more of a "shaper" capability.) However, for smaller bits, a conventional router running 20,000 plus RPM would cut faster and probably smoother.

Right now, I'm looking at some big 3HP conventional routers to mount under my router table, just to handle those big bits. They cost around $400 new (which could help justify the cost of the PP), but sometimes pop up on Craigslist for much less. It seems to me that a PP would be a good alternative to the big router, but that it doesn't completely eliminate the need for a conventional router table.

harveydunn · Post by **harveydunn** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:01 am

Thanks, that is a really useful set of observations.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:02 pm

harveydunn wrote:Maybe I've been unclear. What I want to know is if on the Mark 7 there is not just a router table, but one wherein the SS powerplant is actually serving as the router motor. I'm not interested in a table that supports a hand held router - if I were going to go that route, I'd get a stand-alone table.

You have not been 'unclear' with your questions.

Extra information(tangential answers) is common here as others help to present to you 'all' possibilities.

Do not let that distract you from the direct answers.

Although this is not a PP headstock, other than that with the double tilt upgrade to the 520 it is a direct answer to your question(IIUC).

https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?p=162566&postcount=16

I have zero knowledge of the Incra Fence, so have remained silent on that question.

P.S. Did you read post #4 this thread?;)

P.P.S. Perhaps I was unclear by not including the words "powered by the headstock".

reible · Post by **reible** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:49 pm

By how one defines the capacity of the shopsmith as a router and more importantly how you might use it gives me a few reasons to say that it has limited usage. (For this posting I will be looking at the head stock below the table.)

RPM issues

Still a big issue is the speed, while the old version was really slow the powerpro is an improvement but sill on the low side. A smaller bit in a conventional router might rotate at 28,000 rpm the shopsmith can only get to 10,000, a long way off no matter how you look at it.

Now lets look at larger bits which might be more in line with the 10,000 rpm. The stock shopsmith main table has a metal to metal opening of 3", add the table insert and you are down to 2-5/8", thus the largest bit is going to be 2-1/2". Taking a quick look at a charts shows bits in the 2 to 2-1/2" range can spin at between 12,000 and 16,000 rpm. Still the shopsmith would be slow.

Now 2-1/2" bits are large, however router bits do go up to about 3-1/2", now those bits would run in the 8,000 to 10,000 rpm range but that matters little since you can use them with the shopsmith.

While I personally have not experienced this issue others have. The powerpro can over heat when running for longer periods at high rpm. I don't recall the details but when this happens the powerpro protects it self by shutting down and will not restart until it has cooled down. The issue here would be dependent on how you might want to use the router function.

Moving on to other issues.

Shopsmith doesn't make any sort of reducer for the insert, that means you have that nice 2-5/8" hole. You will need to make adapters to fill in that space. This can be a safety issue and for sure something to address before you attempt to use the shopsmith as a below the table router.

See this thread for more details:

https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=11612

The only router fence you have is your rip fence. Nice as it is for sawing it is not a router fence. If one wants to make an adapter there are endless ways of doing so, picking one is about as hard as making one.

Height adjustment. While the quill is great as a way of adjusting the blade location or for setting stops while drilling it is no where near the fine adjustment you would like to have when routing. Yes it works. But when you are accustom to adjusting a router this will seem like you are back in the dark ages.

If there were a grading system for routing table systems of A (best) to F (no redeemable features) the best I could rate the shopsmith system is a C-.

======================================

Incra systems can be used on the shopsmith, I don't have a version of the ones sold for the shopsmith but I do have a router table setup. I'd never use it for sawing but Incra does make a version that is capable of that.

While my system is much older and I've had to make a few upgrades it is very much like this system:

http://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_L ... fncsys.htm

Mine cost a bit more due to piece meal upgrades along the way but this sale price looks pretty good to me.

Ed

jerm · Post by **jerm** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:58 pm

[quote="JPG40504"]Take a pix of the 'presenter' and let us see it.]

So I just got back from the demo, Mr. Mike Young was over at Albuquerque. I didn't find him rude at all, but I'm sure everyone has their own "gauge"

The thrust of the demo seemed to be PP vs the entire SS unit, but I think that's because when I was watching the demo, 3 of 4 people already had a SS. The one guy that didn't was asking me questions so I told him about my 520. He never asked Mike much about the unit as a whole.

The PP head looks very nice (and I even get another 10% military discount because it's at Lowes), but unfortunately I just can't swing it at the moment. Definitely something to save up for eventually, though. Still need a bandsaw and probably the jointer, though.

I'll probably eventually get the PP by itself - getting the double tilt would almost necessitate the new lift assist, and that's almost +$600 for a questionable value (to me -- I have a bench-mounted router table I'm perfectly happy with).