Hand Shake Agreement - and Honor

[JPG]

I see nothing in Jillette's statement re civil disobedience or fomenting anything other than to state an underlying opinion of who should be helping our fellow travelers on this spaceship called earth.

It ain't the guvment, nor do we get brownie points for others doing it.

I think the reference to guns etc. was a symbolic use of the words.

Not appropriate IMHO, since it makes it somewhat inflamatory.

[heathicus]

I think the reference to guns etc. was a symbolic use of the words.

Not appropriate IMHO, since it makes it somewhat inflamatory.

It's not symbolic at all. Refuse to pay your taxes and see what happens.

...let's set up a constitutional, representative democracy and agree that whatever a majority of our elected representatives enact in a procedurally lawful way will have to be abided by everyone (not because it is right but just because it is at least a procedurally legit law) and if necessary the law will be enforced by goons with guns until either (1) we can overturn it in the courts as unconstitutional or (2) convince enough of our fellow citizens that it is wrongheaded and elect a majority of representatives who will vote to overturn it. Oh, wait a minute. I think some guys already came up with that solution a couple hundred years ago. I guess I think they were smarter than Mr. Jillette.

I don't understand that last sentence. How does Penn Jillette's opinion on "voluntary compassion" vs "compassion at gunpoint" relate to his intelligence compared to the founding fathers and the system of government they created?

For one thing, Mr. Jillette has not criticized our form of government. Maybe he's criticized what that form of government has been used to do, but not the form of government itself. He has not advocated ignoring or disobeying the laws that government has enacted. At worst, he's trying to adjust public opinion on certain laws to "convince enough of our fellow citizens that it is wrongheaded and elect a majority of representatives who will vote to overturn it." Same thing any concerned citizen should be doing. So I'm not sure exactly what you're implying with that comment that the founders were smarter than him.

Secondly, I would imagine that Mr. Jillette would completely agree that the founders were smarter than him.

Thirdly, our Founding Fathers were very divided on a lot of topics, but a good many of them would probably agree with the quote from Mr. Jillette above.

Thomas Jefferson:
"If we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy."

"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circlue of our felicities."

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

George Washington:
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments."

Samuel Adams
"The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on Earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but only to have the law of nature for his rule."

Ben Franklin
"I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."

James Madison
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."

"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions."

I think Pen Jillette's comments would fit right in there with some of the founders. But they wouldn't all agree with Mr. Jillette, myself, or people like us. They disagreed with each other. Frequently. Compare that last quote from Thomas Jefferson and the quote from Samuel Adams above to these two quotes from other Founding Fathers. And this is barely scratching the surface - we're not even touching things like central banking, corporations, national defense, firearms... All subjects that various Founding Fathers had differing opinions on.

John Adams
"Each individual of the society has a right to be protected by it in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property, according to standing laws. He is obliged, consequently, to contribute his share to the expense of this protection; and to give his personal service, or an equivalent, when necessary. But no part of the property of any individual can, with justice, be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. In fine, the people of this commonwealth are not controllable by any other laws than those to which their constitutional representative body have given their consent."

Alexander Hamilton
"A government ought to contain in itself every power requisite to the full accomplishment of the objects committed to its care, and to the complete execution of the trusts for which it is responsible, free from every other control but a regard to the public good and to the sense of the people."

These arguments about the balance between compassion for mankind, liberty and freedom, property rights, and the role of government has been going on from the very beginning.

[Gene Howe]

I received this from a friend this morning an immediately thought of this thread.

Conundrums: The six contradictions of socialism in the United States of America :

1. America is capitalist and greedy - yet half of the population is subsidized.

2. Half of the population is subsidized - yet they think they are victims.

3. They think they are victims - yet their representatives run the government.

4. Their representatives run the government - yet the poor keep getting poorer.

5. The poor keep getting poorer - yet they have things that people in other countries only dream about.

6. They have things that people in other countries only dream about - yet they want America to be more like those other countries.

Think about it! And that, my friend, pretty much sums up the USA in the 21st Century.

[steve4447]

Actually my brother is a LEO. The "Goon with a Badge" in this case would be the act of government force personified. I do find it interesting that your posts seem to be direct personal attacks against some ones character and not a defense of the position you espouse.
Back to the original concept of personal honor. What honor is there in forcing your beliefs on some one with the force of government? Personal honor, integrity, gentlemanly conduct, all of these are individual acts, individual choices. Forcing a payment from some one is not charity, it is not "good works" and certainly is not honorable and seems rather counter to the idea of a handshake agreement.

Interisting how my post is a personal attack....After your name calling is polite exchange of ideas...Seems to be one of the eye of the beholder things...

[steve4447]

Here is something else more abstract to consider....Neither what I said or you said....The costs to society never go away....It's just a question of who is going to pay them and how...

We are paying a huge financial cost to run a Criminal justice System ...I doubt that many of you have considered what it costs to to arrest...try and convict and sentence an offender and what it costs to incarcerate him and that doesn't even begin to to count the other costs society has incurred..

Both the financial and the additional cost of perhaps you own mother being afraid to walk down the street to the store and live in the house where she raised her children....

What do you think is going to happen with ..Large numbers of idle people who feel no attachment to our society...No Loyalties or obligations ....

My reading and understanding of history....Nothing good has ever come of it...I doubt that they will just join hands and walk into the sea...Some of the other civilized countries of the world have nowhere near the the crime and associated costs that we do here...Why?....I can't prove it ...but perhaps we reap what we sow?...Perhaps if we had fewer cold and hunger children....We would have fewer hard and bitter adults...Perhaps if told young people that there will always be a place for them at the table...And that they are valued...Just because they are a fellow member of the human race....The might be less inclined to cut you just to see your expression change?

[JPG]

I have said it before; Move over Romans!

If we are going to place blame(or observe confluence of events) think of the welfare state we seem to have become. When multiple generations have not been self reliant, how does one expect them to act?

The Shakers had a benign philosophy re the 'needy'. They were overwhelmed each winter with 'winter shakers' who generously helped those who labored all summer consume the results of that labor. Celibacy aside, we all know the end result!;)

IMHO apathy is our greatest enemy. Those in our village who ignore or condone actions that need 'correcting' are contributing to the 'problem'.

[davebodner]

In my humble opinion, public debate about such things is good. It helps us find a workable and hopefully reasonable middle ground, especially if the debate is civil.

I agree. And if I'm going to make a point, I hope I can do it in such a way as to avoid insulting someone who disagrees with me. Not pointing the finger at anyone in particular. But, I think this gets forgotten often on this site.

[Gene Howe]

Here is something else more abstract to consider....Neither what I said or you said....The costs to society never go away....It's just a question of who is going to pay them and how...

I would suggest that those within society who benefit should pay those costs. For instance, we all benefit when the populace is educated and we all benefit from roads and bridges that allow trade in goods and services. And, I have no problem with higher fees on those who benefit most. However there are a great number of costs assigned to society at large which arguably have relatively few beneficiaries. And, even some continuing costs whose need has long ago become irrelevant.
As to how, equitable taxation. A set percentage assessed on the first dollar above a certain level with NO DEDUCTIONS and applicable to everyone and all corporations at the same rate. Or a VAT. Either is more equitable than the present system.

We are paying a huge financial cost to run a Criminal justice System ...I doubt that many of you have considered what it costs to to arrest...try and convict and sentence an offender and what it costs to incarcerate him and that doesn't even begin to to count the other costs society has incurred..
I agree that those costs are abominable. However, the first duty of any government, city through federal, is to protect it's citizens. That being said, there are a few laws (maybe more than a few) that could easily, without danger to the populace, be taken off the books or amended.

Both the financial and the additional cost of perhaps you own mother being afraid to walk down the street to the store and live in the house where she raised her children....

What do you think is going to happen with ..Large numbers of idle people who feel no attachment to our society...No Loyalties or obligations ....
I think we're seeing the product of that now.

My reading and understanding of history....Nothing good has ever come of it...I doubt that they will just join hands and walk into the sea...Some of the other civilized countries of the world have nowhere near the the crime and associated costs that we do here...Why?....
Some of the countries do not have a judicial system that so fervently protects the rights of the accused. Freedom, protection and justice is costly. I'm not going to gripe much about those costs.
I can't prove it ...but perhaps we reap what we sow?...Perhaps if we had fewer cold and hunger children....We would have fewer hard and bitter adults...Perhaps if told young people that there will always be a place for them at the table...And that they are valued...Just because they are a fellow member of the human race....The might be less inclined to cut you just to see your expression change?

I totally agree! Perhaps some of the money we now spend on ineffective programs could better be used in teaching parenting skills.

[JPG]

I totally agree! Perhaps some of the money we now spend on ineffective programs could better be used in teaching parenting skills.

Good luck convincing the 'parents' they need to be taught!:D

[dusty]

I am really curious, Steve. In what part of this great country did you grow up and where do you now call home?

FFIW and because I asked you....I was born and raised in Montana, I grew up in the military and I now live near an Indian reservation in Arizona. I lived for 6 years in Biloxi, MS in the 60s and a few years in CA, OH, IA and WA. What I am trying to say is that I have experienced first hand much of what makes this country tick.

How about you? Are you registered to vote?

I do agree that the children in this country are in need of some improved up bringing. Where are they to get that? Hmmm, from their parents??? from their schools??? from their house of worship??? from those they see and meet on the streets??? from their Government????

A bunch of this is rhetoric and I do not expect a response. Just stop and think what you might say if you were inclined to say anything.