Jointer vs. Conical disk?

[BuckeyeDennis]

So - Please tell me - how does one make sure the sanding is at right angles to the face(s). OR MAYBE THAT DOESN'T MATTER? one can always reduce the thickness of the faces to achieve a flat surface.

Well, I would use a square, same as I do when setting the jointer fence. I say "would", because so far I have not really needed to use it as a jointer, but I playe ... Ahem ... researched the process anyhow.

Which brings us back closer to the question of the original post. Fitzhugh, if you are needing to joint "figured" wood .. you know, the really pretty stuff with little straight grain to be found ... the jointer knifes are very likely to find some grain that it wants to tear/chip out, instead of cutting cleanly. This is where a sanding process trumps a cutting process (despite the fine sawdust). The conical sanding disc excels at this, as its geometry causes the abrasive to 'cut' directly down the edge of the workpiece.

Conversely, I find the jointer to be much faster and less messy for making straight smooth edge on "normal" boards. Mine lives permanently on the left-hand SPT mount of my Mark V, so setup is never an issue.

And JPG, when it comes to straightening warped boards, have you tried the planer sled approach? Or does the hand plane approach have benefits that I do not yet understand? I have a semi-functional Bailey #7 awaiting a proper restoration, but I still lack a good bench to make it practical to use.

[JPG]

. . .

And JPG, when it comes to straightening warped boards, have you tried the planer sled approach? Or does the hand plane approach have benefits that I do not yet understand? I have a semi-functional Bailey #7 awaiting a proper restoration, but I still lack a good bench to make it practical to use.

Not yet, but I can appreciate the method as being less sweat productive. It would require a way to shim* the opposite warped face for the first face pass(es). After the first face is flat, the sled is no longer needed. Depending upon the degree of 'warpiness' the hand plane may be faster.

For critical work, the planer is always used in the end.

*I believe I would likely use a hand plane to get the workpiece to behave setting on the 'sled'.

[dusty]

It will work, Dusty, but in order to have it make a right angle edge to the faces, you must have your table at a perfect right angle to the sand paper. This can be quite troublesome.

Gotta ask - who sands an edge prior to gluing? The jointer makes a perfect right angle edge for gluing.

That is not exactly true. If you have two pieces that are going to be edge glued and the mating edges were passed through the conical disk, they may not be perfectly square to the face - simply flip one piece end for end and glue it.

The edges will join perfectly and the resulting face will be flat.

I would not want to rely on this for a large surface made up of many pieces but it works great for small projects. In fact, it even works with edges that were prepared on the jointer (even if you believe the jointer fence is square to the table).

I visited a shop in Amana, Iowa that builds furniture. It was not a "factory" environment where they mass produced but they built more than one at a time. I watched them do matching end tables and a coffee table.

When they prepared the materials for the tops, using a jointer, they did just that. They laid out the tops and then stickered each piece to identify the "top surface". Then the pieces were run through the jointer, sticker exposed. From there, the pieces went to glue up. On the assembly table, alternate pieces were placed sticker down.

Even if the edges were not perfectly square after jointing, the tables were "perfectly" flat after glue up.

Then, just in case, the whole affair went through a wide belt sander.:)

[JPG]

. . .
They laid out the tops and then stickered each piece to identify the "top surface". Then the pieces were run through the jointer, sticker exposed. From there, the pieces went to glue up. On the assembly table, alternate pieces were placed sticker down.
. . .

When they 'stickered' the 'top' then alternated the stickers up/down did not that put the 'top' on alternate pieces facing up/down?

Is it possible they edge jointed one edge with the sticker 'out' and the opposite edge with the sticker 'in'. Then if the incorrect edges were 'mated', rotating the piece end to end would make it 'correct'.

Or did they sticker top/bottom on alternate pieces when 'stickering'?

[charlese]

Sorry! I just can't bring myself to believe the conical strip sander is comparable or superior (with figured wood) than a jointer or hand plane.

I have set my table tilt to the conical disk using an engineering square. After planing both faces of a board, I have used this conical disk method to try to joint an edge. Oh boy! it looked good! smooth an straight! I repeat - looked good. Now the check, again with the engineer square - It ain't square to the faces. In fact there are areas along the sanded surface that are less square than others. In other words it is not only "not square" it is wavy!

Now to address the figured wood; With light passes on the jointer there is very little chip out. If some it is minor and will not compromise a glue-up.

Yeah! The sanded joint will survive a glue-up, but certainly not as well as a truly jointed edge. There will more likely be small openings along a surface where the joint will show a glue line. In these areas, the glue line will not reach the same wood cell penetration as the truly jointed edge. Therefore not as good a joint.

[JPG]

[quote="charlese"]Sorry! I just can't bring myself to believe the conical strip sander is comparable or superior (with figured wood) than a jointer or hand plane.

I have set my table tilt to the conical disk using an engineering square. After planing both faces of a board, I have used this conical disk method to try to joint an edge. Oh boy! it looked good! smooth an straight! I repeat - looked good. Now the check, again with the engineer square - It ain't square to the faces. In fact there are areas along the sanded surface that are less square than others. In other words it is not only "not square" it is wavy!

Now to address the figured wood]
Not to disagree, but:

Wavy means it was not held tight against the fence(yes that is difficult and against gravity).

Not square means the 'setup' was not square, or the workpiece not held tight against the table.(not easy while also keeping it against the fence) Setup for square is not easy as the correct line must be used against the disk(that plane passing through the rotation axis) and sandpaper is not a good surface for doing so.

I think you have 'demonstrated' the difficulty in achieving the desired results.

As for figured grain, if a glue edge, unless it occurs at the outer corners is of no consequence.

With the jointer, the tables are taking care of the gravity issue.

Given the choice I agree the jointer is better 'hands down'. Just do not put them down between the in/out feed table.

I think most of your 'objection' is for use for glue-up since a jointed edge glues better than a sanded one anyway.

For exposed edge sanding I think the disk sander may be better especially if figured. However, who leaves exposed edges square?:D

[BuckeyeDennis]

[quote="charlese"]Sorry! I just can't bring myself to believe the conical strip sander is comparable or superior (with figured wood) than a jointer or hand plane.

I have set my table tilt to the conical disk using an engineering square. After planing both faces of a board, I have used this conical disk method to try to joint an edge. Oh boy! it looked good! smooth an straight! I repeat - looked good. Now the check, again with the engineer square - It ain't square to the faces. In fact there are areas along the sanded surface that are less square than others. In other words it is not only "not square" it is wavy!

Now to address the figured wood]

Very interesting! As I said earlier, I played with the conical disc for edge jointing, but did not get so far as an actual glue-up.

If I understand correctly, the angle you got on the edge was not consistent, even on the same workpiece. I'm wondering if table flex could be the root cause. With the table set at 4 degrees (or whatever it is), you obviously can't be using connector tubes to lock it to the extension table. This would leave the table somewhat springy, and the force from the sanding disc would deflect the table. Not to mention the pressure that you apply to the workpiece to hold it flat against the table and fence. I would expect the center of table rotation to be beneath the trunion, where it would change both the angle and the centerline of the edge.

Which now has me wondering if a connector tube through the table, with telescoping legs on each end, would stiffen it up enough to give good results.

I was also wondering if the conical disc could be used as a passable thickness sander. Put the Shopsmith in drill-press mode, and set the table parallel to the disc, and run the board in between the two. If anything, table stiffness would be even more critical. Anyone ever try this?

[dusty]

[quote="charlese"]Sorry! I just can't bring myself to believe the conical strip sander is comparable or superior (with figured wood) than a jointer or hand plane.

I have set my table tilt to the conical disk using an engineering square. After planing both faces of a board, I have used this conical disk method to try to joint an edge. Oh boy! it looked good! smooth an straight! I repeat - looked good. Now the check, again with the engineer square - It ain't square to the faces. In fact there are areas along the sanded surface that are less square than others. In other words it is not only "not square" it is wavy!

Now to address the figured wood]
I don't believe it was stated that the conical was comparable to a jointer. It was stated (by me) that for a minor edge jointing job the conical could be used with success.

I do it occasionally with either the conical or the drum sander.

[JPG]

Very interesting! As I said earlier, I played with the conical disc for edge jointing, but did not get so far as an actual glue-up.

If I understand correctly, the angle you got on the edge was not consistent, even on the same workpiece. I'm wondering if table flex could be the root cause. With the table set at 4 degrees (or whatever it is), you obviously can't be using connector tubes to lock it to the extension table. This would leave the table somewhat springy, and the force from the sanding disc would deflect the table. Not to mention the pressure that you apply to the workpiece to hold it flat against the table and fence. I would expect the center of table rotation to be beneath the trunion, where it would change both the angle and the centerline of the edge.

Which now has me wondering if a connector tube through the table, with telescoping legs on each end, would stiffen it up enough to give good results.

I was also wondering if the conical disc could be used as a passable thickness sander. Put the Shopsmith in drill-press mode, and set the table parallel to the disc, and run the board in between the two. If anything, table stiffness would be even more critical. Anyone ever try this?

Yes. So?

Yes for small pieces. I made a jig to do that with the table set to '0'. Nick got me to try it with that sawdust session.

Not for the faint hearted.

[dusty]

Very interesting! As I said earlier, I played with the conical disc for edge jointing, but did not get so far as an actual glue-up.

If I understand correctly, the angle you got on the edge was not consistent, even on the same workpiece. I'm wondering if table flex could be the root cause. With the table set at 4 degrees (or whatever it is), you obviously can't be using connector tubes to lock it to the extension table. This would leave the table somewhat springy, and the force from the sanding disc would deflect the table. Not to mention the pressure that you apply to the workpiece to hold it flat against the table and fence. I would expect the center of table rotation to be beneath the trunion, where it would change both the angle and the centerline of the edge.

Which now has me wondering if a connector tube through the table, with telescoping legs on each end, would stiffen it up enough to give good results.

I was also wondering if the conical disc could be used as a passable thickness sander. Put the Shopsmith in drill-press mode, and set the table parallel to the disc, and run the board in between the two. If anything, table stiffness would be even more critical. Anyone ever try this?

Yeah, I've tried it but not will real good success. If you don't lose control of the work piece it would probably work OK. But if that work piece gets away from you ..... there is no telling which way it will go.

I don't advise it.