Boycott Burger King?

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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

rbursek wrote:Ed,
"he was not paying his fair share." What is his "fair share"? What the tax law sez or what your conscience sez, or what someone who is paying taxes at the rate the law sez and resents you for paying what the law sez, because it is less? Then we should resent the person who makes the same income but is frugal and has more $ in the bank, or the bigger house, ect. We all have choices, if someone chooses to work harder instead of smarter, well that is there choice. If someone chooses, not to clip coupons, send in rebate forms, ect, save/invest, be financially lazy, think that getting rich is a one thing deal, exp, win the lotto, inheritance ect. It is not that way for most affluent people, they accumulated it over a period of time, by saving/investing, putting that amount away each month, then with what is left buy the luxuries. The mentality today is buy the luxuries first, then if I have anything left, put it in the bank.
It is beyond me why someone would want to buy a new car? Knowing it just depreciated driving it off the lot, instead of buying a 3 year old car. Buying a bigger house, more expense in taxes, utilities, mortgage interest, maintenance, ect. If you look historically at owning a house, and calculate in all the cost it is, it is not a great investment. The majority of the home owners hitting 55-60 years old still have some type of loan on there house. The banks want to have you take out a second and a third, so you can buy that Harley, that boat, RV, there business is collecting dept interest.

You are throwing in all kinds of variables that I never included. There are many ways to accumulate wealth, from making more money to be frugal living.

What i'm talking about is people that "play" the tax system. In the end they enjoy everything tax money affords but they personally have not contributed anything to it. They are parasites living off society. They may be rich parasites but unless they contribute equally they are still parasites.

Somehow the false idea has become fact that we don't have to worry about it the Government will pay for it. And the most brilliant, shrewdest, and those we should most emulate are the people that don't pay their taxes.

Gone is the concept of shouldering the load, paying our own way, paying for your seat.

We have farmers plowing under crops because it is better to get paid the Government subsidy than harvest and sell the corp. We have corporations building buildings that they know they will never have full tenants for because they know the tax write off they will get will more than they could make renting it. We have companies destroying food because the write off is more than they could get selling by reducing the price. The list is endless.

We have corporations earning billions and paying less tax than a blue collar worker. Somehow that does not seem fair to me.
There are doctors pocketing $1 million a year and pay less taxes than the guy making $35,000 a year. Somehow that does not seem fair to me.

Sure we can say they "worked"/"played" the system and should be rewarded for being smart enough to do that. I say REALLY????
Ed in Tampa
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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

skou wrote:Rpd, you have just exposed the major issue with the US's system. Corporate tax.

Guys, do you REALLY think that when GM sells you a car, (or when General Mills sells you a box of cereal) that THEY, out of the goodness of their hearts pay the corporate taxes? Really? (Are you some SPECIAL kind of stupid?) Or, are they just putting that tax into the price of that Corvette, or box of Cheerios?

Businesses do NOT directly PAY taxes. They just add the tax to the price of what you're buying.

Which is why "corporate tax rate" is just a boondoggle. YOU are still paying THEIR taxes!

Same thing, when you get a job. Social Security says, "you pay half, and your employer pays the other half." Your employer is thinking, "if it costs me X+5 to hire him, I'm out X+5." Do we need him at X+5? What your boss has to pay, is what your wages are. So, even though you don't see it, you're paying the whole thing. If you weren't there, your boss wouldn't have to pay it.

steve

Steve are you are doing is saying you don't get anything for free. Of course GM puts their tax burden into their car prices. If they didn't they would not have any money to pay the tax.

Of course an employer looks at the total cost of labor. Do you think his share of your social security benefit comes to him free?

Look at this way. A company makes a product that they sell for $1.
Let us say the product costs $0.50 to make, $0.05 to get to market, $0.20 profit for the guy that sells it. That means they make $0.25 profit. Now if they have to pay 10% tax plus your SS their profit would be down to less than the guy that just sold it. Who would do that.

No they figure in all their costs and price the product to cover it and still make them the profit they desire. That is how it works.

What is wrong is when they starting using loopholes in the tax system to increase their profit at the cost to the rest of us that pay our fair share.
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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

benush26 wrote:I laughed when I read about the boycott. Political office has become the home of lairs, thieves and despots. A politician cries "FOUL" for various reasons however in this case it covers a multitude of actions. First, the politician knows that nothing will be done about it so he/she can safely spout about the injustice without fear of ever having to act upon their words. Second, by pointing at a falling sky he/she is attempting to distract voters, critical in an election year. The HMFICs of both parties and their associated PACs are raising huge amounts of money to sling mud and hate at the opposition and Americans are sick of it. Personally I believe that those who buy in to the rhetoric are the same that think "Reality TV" is quality wholesome family entertainment. Decades ago there was a movie titled something like “what if they threw a War and Nobody Came?”. The political parties are trying to start a war, but middle class America doesn’t want to go. They are beginning to understand that just like the Vets who fight who once they get home, the government that promised them a better life/world/future, that government is not going to honor its commitment. So they stay home and let those with money spend it on TV, newspaper and mailer ads. The boycott is a great way to use money in ads and sling mud in all directions. Lastly, if by some strange circumstance, Congress does try to step in, The Supreme Court will over rule anything that interferes with business.

Regarding the VAT and fair share idea of taxation (and yes I can tie the two).
First, who's idea of fair share? I seriously doubt we could get consensus on this forum. Then shift the audience to career politicians and you have no chance of coming up with who pays what. Nearly everyone wants most everyone else to pay. Even if we could replace every single elected official, the replacements would get lost in a sea of influence. There are too many people who don't want to pay and those who want to get paid by those who are paying. Add to that a modicum of Capitalism and any thought of a simple solution is doomed.

Which leads me to fair share taxation. A couple decades back, an idea was floated around about a "Fair Tax". Newt Gingrich was one of those at the forefront. The idea was simple. A flat tax applied to ALL new sales. This would replace ALL Federal taxes (but not state, city, county). Currently the organization still promoting this is sure that 23% is THE number. With all deference to them, that amount was feasible a couple decades back when we as a country were more solvent. In it's simplest structure, it takes the dollar amount the nation sells and figures what percentage of that amount would equal the budget. That amount is the tax that pays for the country. However, since the treasury can print money based upon whim, we currently float upon a deficit budget. To get the fair tax system to work, not only would an amount equal to the budget be needed, but also an established loan repayment system to both the Treasury for the money it "borrowed" from other accounts and foreign governments. With the world economy, I would guess the percentage is closer to 39 and that presupposes that Greece and Spain don't fail within the next five years. Economic failure of countries might push that number north of 55%. The kicker is interest rates. :eek: In 1978 the Supreme Court ruled that a national bank could charge the highest interest rate of ANY branch in ANY state, which basically eliminated any and all State Usury laws. North Dakota saw the opportunity and nearly eliminated any cap. That is why many high interest credit cards are issued out of North Dakota. Interest fuels company and job growth. Most companies need to borrow to continue. The Fair Tax system would need an index based upon both Federal interest rates and consumer rates. Since a bank change your interest rate on a whim (kind of like Treasury printing money), planning a cost for a product could vary drastically.

Is there any chance of a middle ground? I don't think so, but I've become jaded. Members have expressed that they are happy with their investments beating the markets, using loopholes, etc Hedge fund managers are one of the wealthiest groups in this nation. Other members want more money poured into a system, but those in Congress will just take it and spend it how their influence peddlers tell them. As stated immediately above, business owners are not in business to pay taxes, they are trying to take a certain amount of investment and turn it into more money. Unless they are foolish, they are not going to absorb extra taxes, wags, employee benefits, Instead they will charge more which generally results in consumers buying less less.

Who do we make happy? :p Who gets the shaft? :eek:

So back to the boycott and fingers pointing in all directions.... Until (or maybe IF) this experiment called the United States of America figures out a way to lasso, brand and castrate those we have ceded control to (the politicians and big business), we don't stand a chance.

Dusty's mantra of voting in November has good merit, but I would urge a more proactive approach. Find a person you trust to represent most of the people you know and convince them to throw their had in to the ring. Starting a county of state level is fine. Provide them grassroots and monetary support until they are elected. THEN as soon as they are elected, look for their replacement!! :confused: It won't take long for them to become part of the problem. :mad: It's just the nature of politics. :rolleyes:

Been there. Smelled the stink. Felt the knives. No current plans for going back!

Be well,
Ben

PS It's nearly 3:30 in the morning so I hope I've found the typos and made some coherent statements, but not making any promises. After all I'm NOT a politician!!:p

Why is fair share so hard to figure. If I must pay 10% of my income to taxes. Would it not be fair to insure everyone individual and corporations alike to pay 10% also?

It would be simple to do this with sales tax. If you spend $10,000 you pay $1000 in taxes. If you save the money you don't pay.

You buy a $20000 car you pay $2000 if you buy a $250,000 car you pay $25000 if you buy a $30 million dollar plane you pay $3 million tax.

Corporations would be taxed on money paid to stock holders.

If the stockholder buys a $1 million house they pay a $100,000 tax.

Does not matter where you got the money, worked for it, inherited it, stole it, you spend it you pay. That seems fair to me.
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fredsheldon
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Post by fredsheldon »

Ed in Tampa wrote:Why is fair share so hard to figure. If I must pay 10% of my income to taxes. Would it not be fair to insure everyone individual and corporations alike to pay 10% also?

It would be simple to do this with sales tax. If you spend $10,000 you pay $1000 in taxes. If you save the money you don't pay.

You buy a $20000 car you pay $2000 if you buy a $250,000 car you pay $25000 if you buy a $30 million dollar plane you pay $3 million tax.

Corporations would be taxed on money paid to stock holders.

If the stockholder buys a $1 million house they pay a $100,000 tax.

Does not matter where you got the money, worked for it, inherited it, stole it, you spend it you pay. That seems fair to me.
I guess the problem is when you make it but don't spend it. How many times have you read about that little ole school teacher who drove a 20 year old car, lived in a 1500 sf house and everybody thought was living off social security. She invested most of her money and kept reinvesting all her dividends until she had accumulated $10 million dollars by the time she died. Using a sales tax method, she might have contributed $2,000 per year to the tax pool rather than the $20,000 per year she would have under the current method of tax collecting. If 50% of all investors did this we would be in a heck of a fix tax revenue wise, would we not.
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Ed in Tampa
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Post by Ed in Tampa »

fredsheldon wrote:I guess the problem is when you make it but don't spend it. How many times have you read about that little ole school teacher who drove a 20 year old car, lived in a 1500 sf house and everybody thought was living off social security. She invested most of her money and kept reinvesting all her dividends until she had accumulated $10 million dollars by the time she died. Using a sales tax method, she might have contributed $2,000 per year to the tax pool rather than the $20,000 per year she would have under the current method of tax collecting. If 50% of all investors did this we would be in a heck of a fix tax revenue wise, would we not.

I guess there would people like that but to me they seem a little off. In any case when she died the people that got her money would spend it so the tax would eventually paid.
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Post by fredsheldon »

Ed in Tampa wrote:I guess there would people like that but to me they seem a little off. In any case when she died the people that got her money would spend it so the tax would eventually paid.
True, but how do we pay for the current wars while awaiting for her to pass on :)
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Post by skou »

fredsheldon wrote:True, but how do we pay for the current wars while awaiting for her to pass on :)
Get out of them! We're NOT fighting to win, so we shouldn't even be fighting.

Sorry to get political here.

steve
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Post by Gene Howe »

Nothing political about the truth, Steve.
skou wrote:Get out of them! We're NOT fighting to win, so we shouldn't even be fighting.

Sorry to get political here.

steve
Gene

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Post by JPG »

The 'politics' did not start two posts back!:rolleyes: Make but do not spend is not the 'source' of the problem.









Tis the guvmnt spending more than it takes in and/or prints!:eek:
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