Table Tilt Lock

[dusty]

I was asked in an email what all of the fuss was about. Why is an unreliable table tilt lock worthy of so much discussion?

Why? Because if it slips at an inopportune time, it could cause problems and maybe injury.

Working with just the Main Table, mine was normally pretty secure but with a floating table attached, especially on the right side, it tended to droop.

I don't intend to argue with the author of the question. I have stated my opinion and that is as far as I will go 'with this discussion'.

My hope for all of the Shopsmith users is that your table lock does not slip like mine has.

[algale]

It isn't the most interesting topic but I agree it is very important. If the table moved during a table saw cut it could be disastrous.

I was asked in an email what all of the fuss was about. Why is an unreliable table tilt lock worthy of so much discussion?

Why? Because if it slips at an inopportune time, it could cause problems and maybe injury.

Working with just the Main Table, mine was normally pretty secure but with a floating table attached, especially on the right side, it tended to droop.

I don't intend to argue with the author of the question. I have stated my opinion and that is as far as I will go 'with this discussion'.

My hope for all of the Shopsmith users is that your table lock does not slip like mine has.

[Ed in Tampa]

I find it a very interesting discussion and it is very very important!!!!!!!!

To have any adjustment move while using any machine is opportunity for disaster.


Back to the discussion.
I had serious flatness problems with my main table. Nick gave us the dollar adjustment which while it didn't totally resolve my main table flatness it did minimize it.

As to my comment in slop in the piviot. If you look at the trunnion and the locking cam they are both slanted and any clamping pressure on the lock cam will cause it to try to lift the trunnion up and in toward the other trunnion.

I would think lock is achieved when the lock cam has moved the trunnion in and up as far as it would go.

Since all of Dusty's checks were on lateral movement I was wondering if there was sufficient up and down movement in the piviot that would prevent the locking cam to put enough pressure on the trunion to stop all movement.

Again Dusty this is a very important discussion so don't worry about someone said.

And please please let us know the final outcome.

[robinson46176]

I was asked in an email what all of the fuss was about. Why is an unreliable table tilt lock worthy of so much discussion?

Why? Because if it slips at an inopportune time, it could cause problems and maybe injury.

Working with just the Main Table, mine was normally pretty secure but with a floating table attached, especially on the right side, it tended to droop.

I don't intend to argue with the author of the question. I have stated my opinion and that is as far as I will go 'with this discussion'.

My hope for all of the Shopsmith users is that your table lock does not slip like mine has.

While I have long enjoyed poking Dusty with a friendly sharp stick over the years about his drive to do "micrometer woodworking" by posting a picture of one of my hatchets with a dial indicator duct taped to the handle I fail to see why anyone would question a good discussion of a problem that could let a table shift in mid-cut which could become a very dangerous situation very quickly...
I don't use any of my Shopsmiths as a table saw on any regular basis since I bought my Ridgid 3650 several years ago. "BUT", anything that could allow the saw table to slip could just as easily allow slipping in any other special set-up which is what my Shopsmiths are in the shop for. "AND", I do occasionally use one of them as a table saw when making some kind of special set-up that I can't make as easily on the stand-alone.
I have not been active before in this discussion but trust that I have been following it with great interest. And yes, I have observed my 510 table to slip a bit once or twice when using the long tubes and extension tables. I don't recall how I worked around it at the time. Probably some silly one time configuration of clamped on supports.

Reading this discussion I wonder if the underlying problem might be a design premise flaw. I always understood that a proper brake always involved a hard material and a soft material against each other just like the locks against the way tubes. This table lock seems to be of two parts of identical or similar material.
My thought process then jumps to thoughts of milling down the contact face of the lock wedge and adding a layer (maybe rivets/screws) of some tractor clutch facing material I have available, to that face??? Just a thought...
I will be following this thread with interest.

[charlese]

I was asked in an email what all of the fuss was about. Why is an unreliable table tilt lock worthy of so much discussion?......

My hope for all of the Shopsmith users is that your table lock does not slip like mine has.

Dusty, my old friend, don't let bother you even a bit!!!! As said in earlier threads, I realize your passion for machine accuracy is an interest I don't share equally. Being a "if it works, don't screw with it" guy, I among others, realize your passion for the machines and posting on the forum provide a major service to all of us, alerting and saving us from numerous machining errors.

Keep on, keeping on, Dusty!

Here's hoping you get this problem fixed soon.

.

[JPG]

I have stayed out of this discussion mainly due to lack of sufficient experience with the 510 table to be helpful.

I feel compelled to support you in the need to understand the 'problem' and search for an answer/solution.

I do think the need for a secure lock when appending tubes and tables to the main table is a minimum satisfactory requirement and not much ado about little!

And thank you for (again) mentioning the 'issue'.

Persistence is seldom understood by those having none.





Did you really buy the 510 tables etc. to get the mounting tubes for the adjustable collar 'fix' to the loose clamp?

[forrestb]

I set my 520 table to 90.1 degrees to the blade and left the table height alone. I put the 520 fence (more on that item in another thread since I recall discussions on hi-jacking a thread) on the right hand edge on the main table and locked it down.

This morning, I removed the 520 fence and re-checked the table without moving anything. It showed 90.0 degrees, not too bad, but when I dropped the SS to the floor (off the casters) the Wixey dropped to 89.9 degrees. When I then put the 520 fence back on the right hand edge of the table it dropped to edit: make that 89.8 degrees.

My system droops without a doubt.

My solution is the same a s Dusty's: arrange for other support. I have been using the 3 foot tubes and the aux fence, but of course if you need to make a height change it is all for nought.

I think I am going to make some supports ala Dusty so that I can change height without loosing 90 degrees.

Forrest

PS I am not so much worried about it being a safety issue as I do that it can ruin a project like a mitered box or frame by causing one or more corners to stay open when drawn in.

[rjent]

Well, I for one, as a newbie am learning a lot, so keep up the discussion. I have been following the conversation and looking at my machine as reference.

[BuckeyeDennis]

I set my 520 table to 90.1 degrees to the blade and left the table height alone. I put the 520 fence (more on that item in another thread since I recall discussions on hi-jacking a thread) on the right hand edge on the main table and locked it down.

This morning, I removed the 520 fence and re-checked the table without moving anything. It showed 90.0 degrees, not too bad, but when I dropped the SS to the floor (off the casters) the Wixey dropped to 89.9 degrees. When I then put the 520 fence back on the right hand edge of the table it dropped to edit: make that 89.8 degrees.

My system droops without a doubt.

My solution is the same a s Dusty's: arrange for other support. I have been using the 3 foot tubes and the aux fence, but of course if you need to make a height change it is all for nought.

I think I am going to make some supports ala Dusty so that I can change height without loosing 90 degrees.

Forrest

PS I am not so much worried about it being a safety issue as I do that it can ruin a project like a mitered box or frame by causing one or more corners to stay open when drawn in.

0.1 degrees is a very small angular displacement] Digital Angle Gauge with Backlight (WR300 Type 2) Specifications

Range: +/- 180 degrees
Resolution: 0.1 degrees
Accuracy: +/- 0.2 degrees
Repeatability : +/- 0.1 degrees
Size: 2.3" x 2.3" x 1.1"
Battery: 1 - AAA
Auto Shut Off: for extended battery life
Backlight: for easy viewing[/color]

So the total angular change that you observed could possibly be explained by measurement error (total error band of 0.4 degrees). More likely, you are seeing a combination of structural compliance (deflection under the weight of the 520 fence), instrumentation (measurement) error, some play in the table supports and carriage, a difference in left and right caster heights, and possibly a bit of trunnion movement.

It did occur to me that my 520 bangs to the ground pretty hard when I lower the casters. That kind of shock loading, in conjunction with a table that weighted to one side, could generate some very large torques on the trunnion, causing it to slip. I keep meaning to mount some rubber pads under the legs, but haven't yet gotten around to it.

If you zero out your Wixey on the table and then push down gently on one side of the table, you should see some motion as the table deflects. But then it should spring back to roughly to zero when released. If the trunnion brake slips, it will not come back to the same angle when released. So how much force does it take to make the brake slip?

[dusty]

I have stayed out of this discussion mainly due to lack of sufficient experience with the 510 table to be helpful.

I feel compelled to support you in the need to understand the 'problem' and search for an answer/solution.

I do think the need for a secure lock when appending tubes and tables to the main table is a minimum satisfactory requirement and not much ado about little!

And thank you for (again) mentioning the 'issue'.

Persistence is seldom understood by those having none.]Did you really buy the 510 tables etc. to get the mounting tubes for the adjustable collar 'fix' to the loose clamp?[/B]

I think that you are referring to a comment I made regarding the 510 table system that I recently purchased on eBay. If so, I really was enticed to bid on the offering because it included the Table Bar and Tube (514344) and the trunnions. I did not and do not really need another table but it came with the deal.

The mounting tubes that I use with the adjustable stop collar are items that I have had almost since I first bought the Mark V. Shopsmith provided those to me because I had a table bar and tube assembly that was hard to run up and down in the carriage. They sent me the tubes, the tapered pins and instructions on how to change out the tubes. These tubes are the originals which Shopsmith did not want back. I think that the tubes had been installed just slightly out of alignment. There is nothing wrong with the tubes and they work great the way I am using them now.