Table Tilt Lock

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algale
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Post by algale »

dusty wrote:I have played with this for about four days now and I am convinced that what I experienced was/is a fluke. A self induced fluke maybe but none the less a fluke.

I can reproduce the failure mode but in normal operation the conditions required to do so are not likely to exist.

When the trunnion bolts are loose, if the trunnions are pulled apart (by whatever force) and the tilt lock is then applied, the front brake will secure itself on the trunnion while the rear brake will close some but will not fully lock (thus the illustrated gap). It is my conjecture that the gap is the sole cause of the tilt lock slipping.

On the bench, pushing the trunnions inward tight against both spindles before applying the tilt lock eliminates the propensity for slippage of the tilt lock. The gap is gone!

At this point, securing the trunnions to the table and performing a table alignment is all that remains. Once that is done, I believe that the slippage problem is eliminated and can not reoccur unless the trunnion bolts are loosened and the table tilt lock is released both at the same time. Only under this condition will the trunnions be able to move apart.

I am currently performing some verification tests but I am satisfied that this issue is resolved.

I have a floating table mounted to the main table and extended as far from the main table as the extension tubes allow. This simulates the typical load condition for the table tilt lock.


Good news!! Let us know the rest of the story.

Since the lock slippage has been plaguing you for a while and since you've been through many, many alignments, I continue to suspect there is something unusual about your machine that makes it particularly prone to having the relatively large rear trunnion gap when normal alignment procedures are used. But if you can with care get alignment and no slippage, it is a non-issue.

All of this has made me curious whether this may be part of the reason for table flatness issues we discussed in the past. Back in August we discussed how your table flatness readings were different depending on whether the table was mounted vs on the bench. I hypothesized the reason you got different flatness readings on the bench versus mounted was because, with the trunnion lock engaged, the trunnions were pushed inward to the table bar assembly and either the table or trunnions had to flex. My money was on table flex then and still is. http://shopsmith.net/forums/showpost.htm?p=174114&postcount=23 At the time I didn't know about the relatively large gap between your rear trunnion and the table bar assembly. With your trunnions properly mounted flush, or very close, to the triple pad on the table bar assembly, there should be a lot less flexing.
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BuckeyeDennis
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Post by BuckeyeDennis »

algale wrote:Good news!! Let us know the rest of the story.

Since the lock slippage has been plaguing you for a while and since you've been through many, many alignments, I continue to suspect there is something unusual about your machine that makes it particularly prone to having the relatively large rear trunnion gap when normal alignment procedures are used. But if you can with care get alignment and no slippage, it is a non-issue.

All of this has made me curious whether this may be part of the reason for table flatness issues we discussed in the past. Back in August we discussed how your table flatness readings were different depending on whether the table was mounted vs on the bench. I hypothesized the reason you got different flatness readings on the bench versus mounted was because, with the trunnion lock engaged, the trunnions were pushed inward to the table bar assembly and either the table or trunnions had to flex. My money was on table flex then and still is. http://shopsmith.net/forums/showpost.htm?p=174114&postcount=23 At the time I didn't know about the relatively large gap between your rear trunnion and the table bar assembly. With your trunnions properly mounted flush, or very close, to the triple pad on the table bar assembly, there should be a lot less flexing.
Indeed! :)
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dusty
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Post by dusty »

algale wrote:Good news!! Let us know the rest of the story.

Since the lock slippage has been plaguing you for a while and since you've been through many, many alignments, I continue to suspect there is something unusual about your machine that makes it particularly prone to having the relatively large rear trunnion gap when normal alignment procedures are used. But if you can with care get alignment and no slippage, it is a non-issue.

All of this has made me curious whether this may be part of the reason for table flatness issues we discussed in the past. Back in August we discussed how your table flatness readings were different depending on whether the table was mounted vs on the bench. I hypothesized the reason you got different flatness readings on the bench versus mounted was because, with the trunnion lock engaged, the trunnions were pushed inward to the table bar assembly and either the table or trunnions had to flex. My money was on table flex then and still is. http://shopsmith.net/forums/showpost.htm?p=174114&postcount=23 At the time I didn't know about the relatively large gap between your rear trunnion and the table bar assembly. With your trunnions properly mounted flush, or very close, to the triple pad on the table bar assembly, there should be a lot less flexing.

All of this makes sense and yes there could be some flex somewhere. Checking for table flatness with no trunnions would reveal that.

http://shopsmith.net/forums/showpost.htm?p=756&postcount=2

Do keep in mind that the trunnion spindles preposition the trunnions and in so doing separate the faces of the trunnions by approximately 14 1/2". At the same time, the three milled bars on each side of the table bar assemble are 14 1/2" apart. This is how the table bar assemble and trunnions should be configured when bolted to the table (during a table alignment). If that is done as described, it seems to me that there would be no tendency to flex the table.

Once bolted to the table (after a complete table alignment), the trunnions would remain in this configuration (separated from one another by 14 1/2").

The table tilt lock should then be reliable because all parts of the locking mechanism are intact. Pressures are being applied as we believe they should be. There is no gap.

I do believe that I will have to recheck table flatness, at least on my Shorty, when in the drill press mode. This is when/where my table flatness issue arose.
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algale
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Post by algale »

dusty wrote:All of this makes sense and yes there could be some flex somewhere.

Do keep in mind that the trunnion spindles preposition the trunnions and in so doing separate the faces of the trunnions by approximately 14 1/2". At the same time, the three milled bars on each side of the table bar assemble are 14 1/2" apart. This is how the table bar assemble and trunnions should be configured when bolted to the table (during a table alignment). If that is done as described, it seems to me that there would be no tendency to flex the table.

Once bolted to the table (after a complete table alignment), the trunnions would remain in this configuration (separated from one another by 14 1/2".


The table tilt lock should then be reliable because all parts of the locking mechanism is intact. Pressures are being applied as we believe they should be. There is no gap.

I do believe that I will have to recheck table flatness at least on my Shorty when in the drill press mode. This is when/where the table flatness issue arose.

I just took a look at my trunnions.

As expected, with the table mounted and locked at 0 degrees and with a strong light behind the trunnion, I can see no light between the three pads on the table bar and the trunnion.

When I unlock the tilt lock and move the table back and forth and then hold it in the 0 degree position (it flops down if I don't hold it) there is a very, very small gap between the three pads and the trunnion through which light is visible. I didn't throw a feeler in there but it looks to be only .001 to .003 but it is there.

I don't think I used the dollar bill trick during my most recent alignment. Suffice it to say, I still think there is a potential for flex, and if the dollar bill trick is used there would have to be flex when the tilt lock is locked.
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dusty
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Post by dusty »

algale wrote:I just took a look at my trunnions.

As expected, with the table mounted and locked at 0 degrees and with a strong light behind the trunnion, I can see no light between the three pads on the table bar and the trunnion.

When I unlock the tilt lock and move the table back and forth and then hold it in the 0 degree position (it flops down if I don't hold it) there is a very, very small gap between the three pads and the trunnion through which light is visible. I didn't throw a feeler in there but it looks to be only .001 to .003 but it is there.

I don't think I used the dollar bill trick during my most recent alignment. Suffice it to say, I still think there is a potential for flex, and if the dollar bill trick is used there would have to be flex when the tilt lock is locked.

That little bitty gap is necessary or the trunnions will squeal when you change table tilt angle.

PS: I have to believe that the flex resulting from closing that .003" gap is negligible.
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JPG
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Post by JPG »

Anybody read post #77 from last night???

Since I had the trunion etc. apart last night, I added the reassembly to my Mark V 510 reassembly stuff.

For anyone encountering this after today - https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=15461
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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algale
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Post by algale »

JPG wrote:Anybody read post #77 from last night???

Since I had the trunion etc. apart last night, I added the reassembly to my Mark V 510 reassembly stuff.

For anyone encountering this after today - https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=15461
Yes, I read it thoroughly.
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JPG
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Post by JPG »

algale wrote:Yes, I read it thoroughly.
I did not have you in mind when I asked the question.;)
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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dusty
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Table Tilt Lock (Models 505/510/520)

Post by dusty »

The droop test has been completed and the table drooped only .2°, per the Wixey, with 20 pounds of dead weight sitting on a floating table mounted on the right side of the main table. There is no way to tell where that droop came from; it may not even be the result of slippage in the tilt lock. It could even be variations in Wixey readings.

I consider this issue resolved. Anyone experiencing table tilt lock slippage should check for the tell tale gap. Close that gap by remounting the trunnions as discussed in this thread and the problem should be corrected.

However, even now, I recommend that when cutting larger pieces on the table saw the extension table and extension tubes should be utilized. Doing this provides for a much more stable table system.

I thank everyone who contributed to this thread with their comments and I hope others are spared the frustration that I experienced.
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BuckeyeDennis
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Post by BuckeyeDennis »

Congratulations, Dusty. Mystery solved! And thoroughly documented, as well. :)
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