Pleasantly Surprised By Table Saw Function

[masonsailor2]

I too have a dedicated table saw and use it as my go to most of the time. But there are many times I get into a project and find having a second table saw set up saves a ton of set up time. I have the 510 fence and it works fine. I am sure that if the SS was my main saw I would upgrade to the 520 fence. There is one function the SS does better than my Rockwell is cutting a 45 degree bevel on a piece of plywood such as a finished end on cabinets. Hands down the SS does a better job there. I have a right tilting blade on the Rockwell so that is a difficult cut. The SS in table saw mode is a pretty awesome tool. Yes it takes set up time but once set up it will handle just about anything one would need. And I have to say for me fiddling with the SS to set it up is part of what I enjoy of the whole woodworking process.
Paul

[edflorence]

Are you saying the 500 rip fence needs fiddling/verification between setups? If so when you fiddle, what are you doing? Is the 'offset' screw(s) fully retracted?

Yes, the offset screws (2 in the upgraded 500 fence) are fully retracted when I go through the full adjustment procedure, that is when the bolts are loosened etc. However, after completing the procedure and getting the fence aligned, clamped down and used, the next time I set it up and clamp it down it may have shifted out of alignment by sometimes as much as a 1/4 of an inch. Usually the tail end will have shifted "in", or towards the blade in other words. After repeatedly going through the full alignment procedure I have over the years decided that instead it does no harm to use the offset screws to move the end of the fence back into line. I use a combination square and set it to the distance from table edge to fence at the head end of the fence and then use the setscrew to move the tail end of the fence until the distance from table edge to fence face is the same all along the length of the fence. The old versions of PTWFE talk about using the offset screw to angle the fence for some sanding disk applications, so I think this adjustment does no harm to fence or table. I do seem to recall that when this subject came up once before you did not think it was a good idea to use the offset screws to angle the fence...am I remembering that right? If so, what would be the possible problem? I have always assumed that since the fence is equipped with these screws, adjusting the fence angle with them is acceptable. It is quicker than going through the full adjustment every time, but when the misalignment gets too bad (more than 1/4 inch or so) I go back and do the full adjustment

[JPG]

You recall correctly! I consider those off set screws(especially the 'second' one)to be a distraction creates misuse of them as you described above.

I do not think using them to align the fence is appropriate.

Now the question is, why is your rip fence becoming mis aligned?

Is it possible that 'technique' is a factor? As has been discussed to death previously, the front of the fence must register to the table rail before the rear clamp is tightened. The front clamp should securely pull the casting into the rail prior to the rear clamp moving. Is it possible that the single knob/screw is not operating correctly? Are all the springs and washers assembled correctly? Are all the parts 'correct'.

Bottom line is, is the front casting slipping relative to the fence itself? That is the only thing that I would consider to be the alignment changing.

Realize the rail and fence casting must not have any burrs or dings that would affect alignment to the blade. Also the rail must be straight(in two planes)(the casting registers against the beveled rail with a bevel of its own).

[dusty]

Are you saying the 500 rip fence needs fiddling/verification between setups? If so when you fiddle, what are you doing? Is the 'offset' screw(s) fully retracted?

Yes, the offset screws (2 in the upgraded 500 fence) are fully retracted when I go through the full adjustment procedure, that is when the bolts are loosened etc. However, after completing the procedure and getting the fence aligned, clamped down and used, the next time I set it up and clamp it down it may have shifted out of alignment by sometimes as much as a 1/4 of an inch. Usually the tail end will have shifted "in", or towards the blade in other words. After repeatedly going through the full alignment procedure I have over the years decided that instead it does no harm to use the offset screws to move the end of the fence back into line. I use a combination square and set it to the distance from table edge to fence at the head end of the fence and then use the setscrew to move the tail end of the fence until the distance from table edge to fence face is the same all along the length of the fence. The old versions of PTWFE talk about using the offset screw to angle the fence for some sanding disk applications, so I think this adjustment does no harm to fence or table. I do seem to recall that when this subject came up once before you did not think it was a good idea to use the offset screws to angle the fence...am I remembering that right? If so, what would be the possible problem? I have always assumed that since the fence is equipped with these screws, adjusting the fence angle with them is acceptable. It is quicker than going through the full adjustment every time, but when the misalignment gets too bad (more than 1/4 inch or so) I go back and do the full adjustment

Agreed, it probably does no harm but it should not be necessary. However, I suggest that you NOT use either cone shaped or serrated set screws. The round point would be my choice so as to minimize marking of the rail. What is puzzling is the stated fact that the degree of misalignment changes over time.

I would not use the table's edge as a reference surface for this check. I would recommend the miter slot. A piece of hardwood milled to fit snugly in the miter track and sit proud of the table top would, in my mind, be a better reference surface for this check.

There are few variables involved here. The first two that I would check are the mating surfaces between the main table rail and the rip fence. In addition to checking these visually, check them with your fingers tips. You can often feel deviations that you do not detect visually. When properly aligned, these two surfaces will be flush against one another. This relationship is something that I key on every time I mount/move my rip fence. It is this relationship that you alter when you use the set screws to align the rip fence.

That having all been said, the front rail must also be square to the miter track. This is not a variable and therefore is not considered (by me) to be a likely contributor to your problem but it should probably be checked. That 1/4" should be real easy to detect with the use of a framing square.

One last question. Does the table remain aligned to the blade? If not, check all of the locks. All five. Anyone of these if not locked properly can contribute to your symptoms. If you doubt that, perform a complete table alignment with anyone of them loose and then after securing the offending lock, recheck your alignment. It will have changed. All five every time. No cut should ever be made with any one of these insecure. Carriage lock. Headstock lock. Depth of cut lock. Tilt lock. Quill lock. I have listed them in what I consider the order of probability that they will affect your symptoms.

Don't ignore the rip fence it self. It is adjustable. At least I think it is; I do not have first hand experience with a 500 fence.

[edflorence]

JPG and Dusty;

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed comments on this fence alignment question. I appreciate you taking the time to think about this. It is an interesting puzzle and would be nice to have it resolved. A couple of comments on your comments:

"Now the question is, why is your rip fence becoming mis aligned?"

...Well, I should throw this into the mix...I have all 3 iterations of the 500 fence, the original with one set screw in the head, the upgrade with two setscrews in the head but no change to the clamping mechanism and the most recent upgrade with two setscrews, an independent rear clamp and a channel in the upper surface for featherboards and other fixtures. Now the first two fences are adjusted by loosening two bolts that connect the head to the fence, and the newest fence is adjusted by loosening 4 socket head screws that are used instead of the 2 bolts. I like the newer fence because it allows me to attach the featherboards so easily and because the rear clamp really does lock the fence down better than the older arrangement. However, it is interesting that the two older fences do not go out of alignment like the new one. Perhaps the two bolt system is more secure than the 4 socket head screws?

"the front of the fence must register to the table rail before the rear clamp is tightened" Check. Not an issue..

"Are all the parts 'correct'." Yep.

"Bottom line is, is the front casting slipping relative to the fence itself? That is the only thing that I would consider to be the alignment changing" I think you are probably correct...I don't know what else would do it either. Which leads me to suspect movement in the 4 socket head screws.

"Realize the rail and fence casting must not have any burrs or dings that would affect alignment to the blade. Also the rail must be straight(in two planes)(the casting registers against the beveled rail with a bevel of its own)." This is all good...as noted above, the earlier fences hold their alignment better.




"What is puzzling is the stated fact that the degree of misalignment changes over time."

Well, the theory I am working on is that there is some degree of "slop" in the fit between the socket head screws and the tapped holes in the head. Repeated use of the fence just loosens things up (?) Anyway, that seems to be the case. I have found that one of the socket head screws doesn't really cinch up like the other three. I am thinking of re-tapping that hole and installing the next size larger screw and seeing if that helps.

"I would not use the table's edge as a reference surface for this check. I would recommend the miter slot. A piece of hardwood milled to fit snugly in the miter track and sit proud of the table top would, in my mind, be a better reference surface for this check." Good Idea...

"There are few variables involved here. The first two that I would check are the mating surfaces between the main table rail and the rip fence. In addition to checking these visually, check them with your fingers tips. You can often feel deviations that you do not detect visually. When properly aligned, these two surfaces will be flush against one another. This relationship is something that I key on every time I mount/move my rip fence. It is this relationship that you alter when you use the set screws to align the rip fence. " These surfaces are smooth and mate well.

"That having all been said, the front rail must also be square to the miter track. This is not a variable and therefore is not considered (by me) to be a likely contributor to your problem but it should probably be checked. That 1/4" should be real easy to detect with the use of a framing square." Interesting...had not thought of that one. I will check it, although I agree it is not likely. Still, it is not something I have checked.

"One last question. Does the table remain aligned to the blade?" Yes...no problems with that alignment. I routinely check it every few months or so and it rarely needs adjustment. Now the auxiliary table will sometimes need a bit of work to bring the surface of it back parallel to the main table, but that does not play a part in this discussion.

"check all of the locks. All five." All Good.

thanks again, gents.

[dusty]

JPG and Dusty;

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed comments on this fence alignment question. I appreciate you taking the time to think about this. It is an interesting puzzle and would be nice to have it resolved. A couple of comments on your comments:

"Now the question is, why is your rip fence becoming mis aligned?"

...Well, I should throw this into the mix...I have all 3 iterations of the 500 fence, the original with one set screw in the head, the upgrade with two setscrews in the head but no change to the clamping mechanism and the most recent upgrade with two setscrews, an independent rear clamp and a channel in the upper surface for featherboards and other fixtures. Now the first two fences are adjusted by loosening two bolts that connect the head to the fence, and the newest fence is adjusted by loosening 4 socket head screws that are used instead of the 2 bolts. I like the newer fence because it allows me to attach the featherboards so easily and because the rear clamp really does lock the fence down better than the older arrangement. However, it is interesting that the two older fences do not go out of alignment like the new one. Perhaps the two bolt system is more secure than the 4 socket head screws?

"the front of the fence must register to the table rail before the rear clamp is tightened" Check. Not an issue..

"Are all the parts 'correct'." Yep.

"Bottom line is, is the front casting slipping relative to the fence itself? That is the only thing that I would consider to be the alignment changing" I think you are probably correct...I don't know what else would do it either. Which leads me to suspect movement in the 4 socket head screws.

"Realize the rail and fence casting must not have any burrs or dings that would affect alignment to the blade. Also the rail must be straight(in two planes)(the casting registers against the beveled rail with a bevel of its own)." This is all good...as noted above, the earlier fences hold their alignment better.




"What is puzzling is the stated fact that the degree of misalignment changes over time."

Well, the theory I am working on is that there is some degree of "slop" in the fit between the socket head screws and the tapped holes in the head. Repeated use of the fence just loosens things up (?) Anyway, that seems to be the case. I have found that one of the socket head screws doesn't really cinch up like the other three. I am thinking of re-tapping that hole and installing the next size larger screw and seeing if that helps.

"I would not use the table's edge as a reference surface for this check. I would recommend the miter slot. A piece of hardwood milled to fit snugly in the miter track and sit proud of the table top would, in my mind, be a better reference surface for this check." Good Idea...

"There are few variables involved here. The first two that I would check are the mating surfaces between the main table rail and the rip fence. In addition to checking these visually, check them with your fingers tips. You can often feel deviations that you do not detect visually. When properly aligned, these two surfaces will be flush against one another. This relationship is something that I key on every time I mount/move my rip fence. It is this relationship that you alter when you use the set screws to align the rip fence. " These surfaces are smooth and mate well.

"That having all been said, the front rail must also be square to the miter track. This is not a variable and therefore is not considered (by me) to be a likely contributor to your problem but it should probably be checked. That 1/4" should be real easy to detect with the use of a framing square." Interesting...had not thought of that one. I will check it, although I agree it is not likely. Still, it is not something I have checked.

"One last question. Does the table remain aligned to the blade?" Yes...no problems with that alignment. I routinely check it every few months or so and it rarely needs adjustment. Now the auxiliary table will sometimes need a bit of work to bring the surface of it back parallel to the main table, but that does not play a part in this discussion.

"check all of the locks. All five." All Good.

thanks again, gents.

Oops. Hold on there. Are we discussing a 500 or a 520 with the new fence. Your comments about 4 bolts on the fence is what has me doubting. Is there a version of the 500 fence that has 4 bolts.

Does the bottom of your fence (the head) look like this?

It really doesn't matter which fence you have. The comments that have been made will all still be valid. There are, however, some potential contributing factors if you have a ProFence. If you do, dismantle it and inspect the head. I don't recall who it was, but some one had a similar problem and found the head to be broken.

[JPG]

The newest 500 rip fence upgrade is essentially a short 510 fence with separate front and rear clamps. IIUC it is almost identical to the bandsaw fence upgrade. If so they all have the 4 screw fence rail/head mount.

Like Dusty I would be suspicious of whatever the head/rail interface is including the screws.

I do not think anything would be 'lost' by complete disassembly and close examination. The 'loose' screw may be partially stripped(as well as the other three).

FWIW, I am less than thrilled with the band saw fence upgrade, and have modified it to make it easier to use.

[jimthej]

I used that fence for a time. I ended up putting a heli-coil in each of the screw holes. The extrusion is very thin there and strips easily. I wish there was room for a tapping plate there.

[edflorence]

I used that fence for a time. I ended up putting a heli-coil in each of the screw holes. The extrusion is very thin there and strips easily. I wish there was room for a tapping plate there.

Right...this is the newest 500 fence we are talking about...it is very similar to the new bandsaw fence. I suspect that your experience with the stripped holes is what is going on with the loose socket head screw in my fence. The stripped out hole allows just a bit of motion between the head and the fence and that is what is causing the misalignment. Did the heli-coils work for you? and are you still using this fence? Thanks for your input...

[edflorence]

Oops. Hold on there. Are we discussing a 500 or a 520 with the new fence. Your comments about 4 bolts on the fence is what has me doubting. Is there a version of the 500 fence that has 4 bolts.

Does the bottom of your fence (the head) look like this?

Hi Dusty;

Nope, all my SS equipment is for the model 500. I have upgraded the fences and the auxiliary table and the saw guards and the headstock to the 1 1/8 motor and double bearing quill, added front table extensions and all that other good stuff, but its still a 500. The new fence is nice because of the slot on top for featherboards and stops, but I keep the old fences around because I like the hole on top that accepts the lathe tailstock as a center for sanding disks.