Woodworking for Fun & Profit

[Ed in Tampa]

I am sorry Ed if you see it as nonsense, but to me it is the truth. Did it for 40 years. Like I said, I could write a book, but I stand by my assessment. Building houses you are in a guild (license) and have an established market (price/foot). To me that is not what we are talking about here. Do you really think a painting is worth a million dollars. Only to the buyer.

Not getting into a debate, but I think berry asked an age old, and very good question, and I am just passing on my experience FWIW

First let me apologize for the use of the word nonsense. It was unkind and really did not convey what I was trying to express.
Let's use the million dollar picture scenario, my guess the artist never set the price. That price was set when the completed object was judged to be worth that much by people willing to pay the price. However art has an subjective value that most repair or installations don't have unless we are talking unique design and/or carving.

The question is how do I set price particularly labor. Building houses was a poor example. As a builder I don't know how much time I will spend on a house due a zillion factors.

Pricing comes from experience. I was watching This Old House and Tommy was cutting stairs. He showed a method that he described as accurate and quick. This was a method he used and knew exactly how long it would take to do. He knew it was going to take x hours. He could price the labor using x times what he wanted an hour.

The originator of this topic said he was looking at small and unique jobs others probably wouldn't go after. My suggestion he price these types of jobs as cost plus. He could supply the customer with a fairly accurate material lists. Then explain he is going to do the job for x percent above that cost.

[rjent]

I am sorry Ed if you see it as nonsense, but to me it is the truth. Did it for 40 years. Like I said, I could write a book, but I stand by my assessment. Building houses you are in a guild (license) and have an established market (price/foot). To me that is not what we are talking about here. Do you really think a painting is worth a million dollars. Only to the buyer.

Not getting into a debate, but I think berry asked an age old, and very good question, and I am just passing on my experience FWIW

First let me apologize for the use of the word nonsense. It was unkind and really did not convey what I was trying to express.
Let's use the million dollar picture scenario, my guess the artist never set the price. That price was set when the completed object was judged to be worth that much by people willing to pay the price. However art has an subjective value that most repair or installations don't have unless we are talking unique design and/or carving.

The question is how do I set price particularly labor. Building houses was a poor example. As a builder I don't know how much time I will spend on a house due a zillion factors.

Pricing comes from experience. I was watching This Old House and Tommy was cutting stairs. He showed a method that he described as accurate and quick. This was a method he used and knew exactly how long it would take to do. He knew it was going to take x hours. He could price the labor using x times what he wanted an hour.

The originator of this topic said he was looking at small and unique jobs others probably wouldn't go after. My suggestion he price these types of jobs as cost plus. He could supply the customer with a fairly accurate material lists. Then explain he is going to do the job for x percent above that cost.

No worries Ed, I wasn't angry LOL. I think the problem is that we are too "blue collar" oriented in how we perceive the value of something we make with our hands and machines. Gasoline is NOT worth 4 dollars a gallon, but we will pay it because we need it. A unique woodworking project is a whole other game again. It is artful, it is technical. I once talked to a glass blower. He made the most incredible glass jelly fish. Just stunning. It took him just a few mins to make them, but he retailed them for 500 dollars a pop, and couldn't keep up with demand. It wasn't about his time at all. It was about how much someone would pay for it. To me that is the balance.

As always, JMHO

[benush26]

I'll throw in my 1 cent worth (my opinions are not really worth 2 cents)

Set up costs.... Are you making one time jigs or something that will FOR CERTAIN be used again? Guessing that they will be does not count. Single use means full charge even for old plywood and reused screws. Once used you need to replace materials and supplies even it they have been setting around for a year.

How long will the jigs take? If you are certain (there's that word again) you can do it in a specific amount of time at 50% to the time just in case. If it is new territory, 3 times the amount of time you think you can do it in is probably closer.

Your time actually building the project. If you are CERTAIN (yep) then again just add 50% to the time, otherwise triple your best guess. It will be scary how close 3 times the amount of time it takes is closer to the actual time than your first best guess!

Given your skill set and dedication, how much is your time worth? These are really difficult to access. Modesty, false or otherwise will help you go broke very fast. Inflated ego usually (not always) results in a bad reputation. Brutal self examination is a must. If you make Norm look like a first year apprentice then charge accordingly. If your attention to detail is lacking and will remain that way then price yourself to appeal to those who don't care (or cannot tell).

Is there a small company near by that makes custom furniture? Check out a chair or bed stand. Compare what they charge to what you know are the raw materials are and figure there setup is based upon reusing jigs and such. You may not be able to calculate their overhead but I bet you can come close. The remainder is your guesstimate of their profit. Divide by how long you think it takes them to make it. Now you have a per hour cost for THEIR labor, what do you think is a fair number for yours?

In my opinion if you want to add something for your overhead, make it a sort of sliding scale. Take the amount you need to keep the power company bill paid for the whole season, divide that amount by how may hours of projects you think you will actually get done, then add that amount (basically a per hour cost) to each piece.

This is not very exact, but after a couple of years you will be able to tweak it so that estimating is significantly easier.

The previous posters had some very valuable advise regarding about where to look to concentrate your efforts and understanding the market. You could be Christopher Schwarz and still go broke if no one can afford your work (even if they appreciate the quality), but more importantly don't sell yourself or your work short.

Just my one cent worth!

Be well,
Ben

[beeg]

Found this, it may help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jPBT1u19O8

[charlese]

I buy all my raw wood boards wholesale. Wanted to make sure that point was first.

Every piece of finished woodworking where I have been offered a price - the offer was too low!! Always laughable! Below the price I paid for the boards.

When people offered to buy a furniture piece, they must have been thinking of a local price for stuff built commercially, using some type of manufactured wood - then veneered.

Even my family, who should know better, have underestimated the cost of only the wood in a project.

Recently, I showed a picture of the rocking chair made from black walnut to my dentist. He said he would like me to make one for him. Doubting he would want to pay the price, I told him the wood cost ($600). When he looke jolted by that. I knew he would never spring for $2,000 so the conversation stopped.

A neighbor got out his checkbook when he saw the recent blanket/hope chest. He offered the price of the wood. I answered, NO! That's the price I paid for the wood! So negotiations stopped.
But he even came back the next day with double the wood's price all justified in his mind by the dovetails, and his cousin really wanted it. Answer was still NO!!
Guess he really wanted it, but so did my wife.

[JPG]

You are essentially making furniture 'the old way'. i.e. Like antiques.

Now add the one and only factor and how much would that antique be worth?


Ditto the 'new' stuff made the old way!



Folks who do not 'make' things are clueless.


I am amazed at the crap that passes for 'fine' furniture today.

[roy_okc]

Found this, it may help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jPBT1u19O8

... and that link led to 4-5 hours down various rabbit holes (videos), but in a good way.

There are a couple pricing strategy examples near the end that I've heard over and over on the various sites that I frequent. Don't undercut your price, rather set at what the market will bear.