Human finger in Saw Stop

[ERLover]

Ed, allot of foresight there, yes automation will drive the commercial industry. As far as the one the job site contractor as I was, it is hard to over see it, by any overseer. If in fact any "job site" saw has that then when one is replaced by an on site contractor, he will have to pay the price.
Kinda like my 95 year old mom, who has a 1998 Oldsmobile, with 90K on it and only driven to church and the farmers market. Never"made it to "Cash for Clunkers", same with on sight saws. I hope that made sense.

[Ed in Tampa]

IMHO, that kind of marketing is exactly what Glass should be doing, instead of attempting to use the judicial system to circumvent the free market.

I promised myself I wasn't going to get into anymore SawStop debates, but I can't let that one go, Buckeye! Whatever you think of Gass' anti-free market actions, the other manufacturers are not exactly paragons of the free market either.

Allow me to explain. Gass has filed an anti-trust lawsuit against the members of the Power Tool Institute (PTI), claiming PTI members formed an illegal conspiracy in restraint of trade to prevent Gass' technology from getting to the marketplace.

The factual basis for this anti-trust suit is Gass' allegation that the PTI manufacturers got together and threatened to kick Ryobi out of PTI if Ryobi went ahead and honored an agreement Ryobi was about to sign with Gass to incorporate his technology into their saws. If that allegation is proven true, the PTI members will have illegally circumvented the free market system at least as much as Gass, if not more.

In the long run, none of this matters very much, in my opinion. We end-users may think this is a fight over the free market or choice or freedom but, really, the fight is over money. As it usually is.

SawStop is currently eating the other manufacturers' lunch. Ultimately, the other manufacturers will either figure out how to invalidate and/or circumvent Gass' patents (and there's a patent suit right now over that very issue), or they will license his technology. All the manufacturers will then begin putting some form of skin-sensing, blade stopping technology in all their saws (and charging us end users).

Then, to protect themselves from being undersold by newcomers who might try to sell saws without the technology, PTI will go to CPSC and insist on a new safety standard incorporating some kind of skin-sensing, blade-braking safety performance standard -- just like Gass has tried to do (unsuccessfully so far). And once PTI is on board, CPSC WILL issue the safety standard rules PTI wants because that's what CPSC always does -- it basically let's the big manufacturers decide what the safety standards should be.

I figure that's 15-20 years down the pike given the usual length of anti-trust/patent litigation. But mark my words: You will wake up one day and every saw at Home Depot and everywhere else will have some form of this technology. Just like every car today has an airbag. Hardly anyone remembers how the auto industry fought mandatory airbags for years (successfully) arguing it was too expensive and it was a matter of choice for the buyer. Once the auto-manufacturers decided it was a good marketing feature, they all offered it, relaxed their opposition and got the safety standards changed to make it mandatory (thus protecting themselves from being undersold). Now you can't buy a new passenger vehicle without them.

Personally I don't think the saw stop technology has effected the manufacturing world to the degree many of us imagine. If you remember Gass' own words when describing the how the saw stop worked he said it was similar to a touch lamp. I don't think that technology can be patented. Gass isn't paying any lamp company to use their patent nor is any lamp company paying Gass. So that technology is usable by all. I think/believe if the manufactures really wanted this technology they would have jumped on it. Bosch has made a similar saw but seem to dragging their feed bringing it to market. I think their market potential people are saying there isn't much demand.

Compare Home Depot 10-15 years ago to today. They had two models of table saws and kept 5 units of the saw in store today they only have bench top units. Stationary units must be ordered but even the catalogues are gone.

Our Woodcraft store would have three to four models of table saws on displays with units in boxes/pallets ready to go. Today they have a saw stop or two and they are order only.

The market is almost gone for table saws

[Ed in Tampa]

Ed, allot of foresight there, yes automation will drive the commercial industry. As far as the one the job site contractor as I was, it is hard to over see it, by any overseer. If in fact any "job site" saw has that then when one is replaced by an on site contractor, he will have to pay the price.
Kinda like my 95 year old mom, who has a 1998 Oldsmobile, with 90K on it and only driven to church and the farmers market. Never"made it to "Cash for Clunkers", same with on sight saws. I hope that made sense.

I built houses with my son in law for a few years. None of our subs had table saws nor did they have a need.

Our insurance limited any on site table saw to us, we had to bring it on site, use it ourselves and remove it from the site when finished. No employee or sub could use the saw. Needless to say any special cuts were taken back to our shop and cut.

[ERLover]

Ed, I go to 2 different WC stores and 1 Rockler, I think inventory/cost keeps them from having TS on floor for sale. I dont know if they are on commission or they have to buy them. WC are franchised, Rockler are company stores, in the 2 WC I go to here in WI stock varies, because they have to buy it, at least small items, dont know about machinery.

[BuckeyeDennis]

Personally I don't think the saw stop technology has effected the manufacturing world to the degree many of us imagine. If you remember Gass' own words when describing the how the saw stop worked he said it was similar to a touch lamp. I don't think that technology can be patented. Gass isn't paying any lamp company to use their patent nor is any lamp company paying Gass. So that technology is usable by all. I think/believe if the manufactures really wanted this technology they would have jumped on it. Bosch has made a similar saw but seem to dragging their feed bringing it to market. I think their market potential people are saying there isn't much demand.

Compare Home Depot 10-15 years ago to today. They had two models of table saws and kept 5 units of the saw in store today they only have bench top units. Stationary units must be ordered but even the catalogues are gone.

Our Woodcraft store would have three to four models of table saws on displays with units in boxes/pallets ready to go. Today they have a saw stop or two and they are order only.

The market is almost gone for table saws

Interesting -- you are saying that table saws will go the way of the radial arm saw. And you may well be right. I can say for certain that a conventional table saw is nowhere close to meeting the safety standards that OSHA mandates for production metal-working machines.

Of course, radial arm saws have made a stealth comeback, sort of, disguised as sliding compound miter saws. The main difference is that you can't rip on a SCMS, and the modern guarding is much better. And besides, everyone knows that a table saw is a better/safer tool for ripping!

[algale]

Personally I don't think the saw stop technology has effected the manufacturing world to the degree many of us imagine. If you remember Gass' own words when describing the how the saw stop worked he said it was similar to a touch lamp. I don't think that technology can be patented. Gass isn't paying any lamp company to use their patent nor is any lamp company paying Gass. So that technology is usable by all. I think/believe if the manufactures really wanted this technology they would have jumped on it. Bosch has made a similar saw but seem to dragging their feed bringing it to market. I think their market potential people are saying there isn't much demand.

Compare Home Depot 10-15 years ago to today. They had two models of table saws and kept 5 units of the saw in store today they only have bench top units. Stationary units must be ordered but even the catalogues are gone.

Our Woodcraft store would have three to four models of table saws on displays with units in boxes/pallets ready to go. Today they have a saw stop or two and they are order only.

The market is almost gone for table saws

Unless your touch lamp fires a pyrotechnic charge that smashes a piece of metal against its own bulb to turn itself off, I suspect there's a world of difference between it and SawStop. The U.S. Patent Office certainly thought so because it issued SawStop numerous patents on its brake system. Those will get challenged now that Gass has sued for patent infringement and a court will decide whether the patents are valid or not.

Other than Ryobi, none of the manufacturers originally wanted anything to do with technology to make their saws safer if accidentally touched because they feared it would make their other saws look unsafe and make them more susceptible to products liability suits for unequipped saws. That's why the other manufacturers allegedly threatened Ryobi and made Ryobi back out of the deal: if they could prevent SawStop from getting beyond the blackboard or a prototype or two they could argue the design was untested and thus they weren't required to make a safer saw. They never imagined that, after being spurned by a tool industry unified against him, Gass would actually do something as crazy as start making his own table saws and installing the technology in them.

Anyway, now that the cat's out of the bag, they (PTI) are so desperate to come up with something that works as well but avoids Gass' patents (and the royalty payments/licensing fees they would have to otherwise pay), that they formed a joint venture research project to do just that. If they succeed, they will advertise the heck out of their "safer" table saws.

Ironically, I think it is this technology (SawsStop and whatever PTI comes up with) that will save the table saw from extinction.

[JPG]

Personally I don't think the saw stop technology has effected the manufacturing world to the degree many of us imagine. If you remember Gass' own words when describing the how the saw stop worked he said it was similar to a touch lamp. I don't think that technology can be patented. Gass isn't paying any lamp company to use their patent nor is any lamp company paying Gass. So that technology is usable by all. I think/believe if the manufactures really wanted this technology they would have jumped on it. Bosch has made a similar saw but seem to dragging their feed bringing it to market. I think their market potential people are saying there isn't much demand.

Compare Home Depot 10-15 years ago to today. They had two models of table saws and kept 5 units of the saw in store today they only have bench top units. Stationary units must be ordered but even the catalogues are gone.

Our Woodcraft store would have three to four models of table saws on displays with units in boxes/pallets ready to go. Today they have a saw stop or two and they are order only.

The market is almost gone for table saws

Unless your touch lamp fires a pyrotechnic charge that smashes a piece of metal against its own bulb to turn itself off, I suspect there's a world of difference between it and SawStop. The U.S. Patent Office certainly thought so because it issued SawStop numerous patents on its brake system. Those will get challenged now that Gass has sued for patent infringement and a court will decide whether the patents are valid or not.

Other than Ryobi, none of the manufacturers originally wanted anything to do with technology to make their saws safer if accidentally touched because they feared it would make their other saws look unsafe and make them more susceptible to products liability suits for unequipped saws. That's why the other manufacturers allegedly threatened Ryobi and made Ryobi back out of the deal: if they could prevent SawStop from getting beyond the blackboard or a prototype or two they could argue the design was untested and thus they weren't required to make a safer saw. They never imagined that, after being spurned by a tool industry unified against him, Gass would actually do something as crazy as start making his own table saws and installing the technology in them.

Anyway, now that the cat's out of the bag, they (PTI) are so desperate to come up with something that works as well but avoids Gass' patents (and the royalty payments/licensing fees they would have to otherwise pay), that they formed a joint venture research project to do just that. If they succeed, they will advertise the heck out of their "safer" table saws.

Ironically, I think it is this technology (SawsStop and whatever PTI comes up with) that will save the table saw from extinction.

I think it ironic(maybe?) that Ryobi was the culprit in the Osario case since Ryobi had previously been aligning with Gass.

[ERLover]

BD,

Interesting -- you are saying that table saws will go the way of the radial arm saw. And you may well be right.
You are right on that, the RAS, it was the use of using them to rip was the dangerous zone, also left thumb loss on cross/miter sawing, but heck you can do that on a CPMS if you are right handed!!!! It is about user responsibility and awareness!!!
Cant get into that whole other discussion, no knowledge of it, so you guys, knock yourselves out

[Ed in Tampa]

Ed, I go to 2 different WC stores and 1 Rockler, I think inventory/cost keeps them from having TS on floor for sale. I dont know if they are on commission or they have to buy them. WC are franchised, Rockler are company stores, in the 2 WC I go to here in WI stock varies, because they have to buy it, at least small items, dont know about machinery.

You have a hard time selling things you can't deliver today. When I pull the trigger on things I want them now.

[Ed in Tampa]

Personally I don't think the saw stop technology has effected the manufacturing world to the degree many of us imagine. If you remember Gass' own words when describing the how the saw stop worked he said it was similar to a touch lamp. I don't think that technology can be patented. Gass isn't paying any lamp company to use their patent nor is any lamp company paying Gass. So that technology is usable by all. I think/believe if the manufactures really wanted this technology they would have jumped on it. Bosch has made a similar saw but seem to dragging their feed bringing it to market. I think their market potential people are saying there isn't much demand.

Compare Home Depot 10-15 years ago to today. They had two models of table saws and kept 5 units of the saw in store today they only have bench top units. Stationary units must be ordered but even the catalogues are gone.

Our Woodcraft store would have three to four models of table saws on displays with units in boxes/pallets ready to go. Today they have a saw stop or two and they are order only.

The market is almost gone for table saws

Unless your touch lamp fires a pyrotechnic charge that smashes a piece of metal against its own bulb to turn itself off, I suspect there's a world of difference between it and SawStop. The U.S. Patent Office certainly thought so because it issued SawStop numerous patents on its brake system. Those will get challenged now that Gass has sued for patent infringement and a court will decide whether the patents are valid or not.

Other than Ryobi, none of the manufacturers originally wanted anything to do with technology to make their saws safer if accidentally touched because they feared it would make their other saws look unsafe and make them more susceptible to products liability suits for unequipped saws. That's why the other manufacturers allegedly threatened Ryobi and made Ryobi back out of the deal: if they could prevent SawStop from getting beyond the blackboard or a prototype or two they could argue the design was untested and thus they weren't required to make a safer saw. They never imagined that, after being spurned by a tool industry unified against him, Gass would actually do something as crazy as start making his own table saws and installing the technology in them.

Anyway, now that the cat's out of the bag, they (PTI) are so desperate to come up with something that works as well but avoids Gass' patents (and the royalty payments/licensing fees they would have to otherwise pay), that they formed a joint venture research project to do just that. If they succeed, they will advertise the heck out of their "safer" table saws.

Ironically, I think it is this technology (SawsStop and whatever PTI comes up with) that will save the table saw from extinction.

The Gass saw is twice to three times the cost. I really don't see that as much competition.