Original rip fence update my design.

[reubenjames]

The political comment was a joke, and a non-partisan one at that. Hardly bringing serious politics into the discussion. The statement you made about how they can't be wrong just seemed overboard since many companies make the same mistakes about products all the time.
I'm not commenting on your modification at all, nor have I, so why insult my system by calling it a Model T, implying an outdated or inferior method, instead of what it is: an alternate and proven / effective method. Why not call it a classic Corvette, which is still a great and usable vehicle?
Your method may be easier for you, and that's great, but you already admitted your system had flaws that clearly were not part of the design but sounds like issues from the previous owner. To malign virtually everyone else's system here by implying we are all clinging to the past (I'm 32, I have no nostalgia for old fence systems if they are ineffective) just comes off as aggressive and off-putting.
The systems you mentioned were designed by engineers and manufactured for their particular product, with testing for safety and accuracy. I think some people here are concerned that a home modification might not be as safe or as accurate as hoped for, being tacked on to a system that wasn't designed for it. As always, safety, effectiveness, and caution are the hallmarks of the men and women here who are veterans of these forums (and that is not me), and their efforts have helped many, and I think they still have their fingers.

[JPG]

If Hilary and Trump agree on something, does that mean it can't be wrong, too?

Oh, I'd better not...

Why bring politics into this discussion? Maybe "it can't be wrong" is too strong of a statement, but having used both systems, I speak from user knowledge, and Biesiemer is a leader in after market fences, that system is MUCH easier to adjust and slides easier than metal to metal. That is simply my reason for making the modification.You don't like it don't do it, keep diving a Model T, if that is your preference

Now having access to a mercedes is great, but does not justify putting down one who who drives a model T.

I dare say to modify a model T to function similar to a mercedes is folly. Especially so when the model T parts are incorrect. Also lack of understanding of how the model T was intended to be used is a slippery slope.


I do understand your frustration that led to your modifications. An action I myself would have likely taken under similar circumstances.

You alone are the judge of your satisfaction with the modifications.

However as Ed has stated, newbies need to know that the modifications are deviant from the original design.

If anyone wants to follow, that is their choice.

The use of 'political names' was to illustrate an example of faulty logic, not an interjection of politics per se.

One does not correctly reach conclusion "C" without at least two correct premises("A" and "B").

Hopefully time will justify your satisfaction with your mods. From your initial description of previous experience it has to be an improvement.

Unfortunately you never experienced 'normal'. You likely pushed against the rail with the fence since that was your habit with the other fences as you moved the fence.

[jjbuzard]

#207015 by reible » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:57 pm
Don't know how you got the wrong screws but you did. I checked the three rip fences I have and they all have the oval points. The one is from the 1976 new from the factory one and another is from the updated fence that I got just after they came out and the third is from if I remember right a 79 or 80 that I got used.

I checked, everything on my Mark 5 has Cup Point Set Screws, except my 2 -12" sanding discs, those have Flat, not round set screws, I have 3 power coupler sets, all Cup Point, Molder / Dado Arbor, Saw Blade arbors, 4 - 5/8" and 3 - 1 1/4" all are cup point, is this correct? My Mark 5 is 1981 vintage.

[jjbuzard]

[quote="JPG"]The Mark 5 fence only had the one screw since that side is the one to use the screw to offset the fence.

IIUC the second one was added when the bandsaw fence was introduced for the alumuinum table(blade drift...). Since the same base casting was used for the '500' it also has two screws.

Here is a picture of my 1981 Mark 5 fence, 2 set screw locations, from the factory.

[jjbuzard]

[quote="JPG"][quote="jjbuzard"][quote="reubenjames"]If Hilary and Trump agree on something, does that mean it can't be wrong, too?



However as Ed has stated, newbies need to know that the modifications are deviant from the original design.

I didn't know that this site was dedicated in only keeping our Shopsmith Factory Original (exactly what is that? I think many Shopsmiths came from the factory a one off and the next one redesigned)and new ideas or improvements were sacrilege, punishable by excommunication or worse. I though it was a place to share ideas and improve where designs fall short, Engineers are NOT infallible, my dealings with engineers at the Heavy Equipment company I worked at generally were, "Well it works on paper, so it is good." Wrong in many cases, requiring redesign after field testing.

[reible]

Ouch someone did a job on the setscrews on your machine.

There are very few places that have cup setscrews on a shopsmith. There is a list here of the set screws that things use. I don't have the time right now to look it up but someone can find it and post here that would be great.


I'm going to have to assume that a previous owner did this and perhaps as an improvement. It is unlike to have been an improvement, who knows what damage these set screws have done to different shafts and the like.

I think what we are saying is that it is fine to make improvements but they should start with factory parts and then go from there. A used shopsmith who knows what others have done to it. I got a few that had some real hum digger of repairs. One was missing the spherical washer, it had fallen in the motor pan and the repair was several sets of washers on the shafts lock but of course that didn't work well and the owner admitted that it had a problem. The solution was not for me to redesign the lock it was to return it to factory condition.

In your case the fence has a problem and one that is not common, there are who knows how many shopsmiths that are working fine so in an effort to help you we have suggested that your situation is not normal and as such any repair and or improvement is specific to your problem. If you were to replace this fence you might not need or want the repair or improvement but since I don't think you're interested in doing that then you have your solution. It is also possible that this part came from the factory defective, pretty hard to tell at this point.

I personally want to try this with some uhmw strip material I have to see if I like it.

The problem come in where someone will read this and say OH I have to do that to get my fence to work right and they may not need to do anything other then retract the set screws..... again if you start with the factory stuff being right you can go where you need to go. If this is a solution to another user fine.

Also keep in mind this fence design is over 60 years old so while it has evolved there is also a long history of them working right. I think I once saw there are over 550,000 shopsmith so that is a lot of parts and other fence makers wish they could sell that many.

We do encourage people to post their ideas, we do like to see what others have done and to share. Perhaps it may not seem that way but we are trying to help you and others and that is because we love our machines and want people to be happy with them. We don't work for shopsmith we are just owners and represent a lot of years of owner ship. I personally own 5 machines and that is not uncommon. Perhaps our passion is a bit much but our hearts are in the right place.

I'm going to bow out of this thread but feel free to continue posting and try to enjoy what has been offered in the spirit it has been given.

Ed

[jjbuzard]

Ouch someone did a job on the setscrews on your machine.




I'm going to have to assume that a previous owner did this and perhaps as an improvement. It is unlike to have been an improvement, who knows what damage these set screws have done to different shafts and the like.



Ed

I am the original owner of this machine, and I certainly haven't changed out these screws, must have been a rush time at the factory and were short on inventory, I know for a fact the one coupler set was purchased in the late 80's early 909's and it has cup point set screws, still in the package.

[reubenjames]

Everything Ed just said.

We are concerned / curious when you describe a working design as defective, when, in fact, it has worked for many of us. Promoting ideas is great, and encouraged. Implying that they are necessary to bring some kind of "outmoded" design into a state where it's usable is what's giving me pause, since it's obvious your situation with your rip fence is unique and not indicative of what others have experienced. The actual design may not be as smooth or quick as others, but that doesn't mean it isn't as accurate or functional. Especially in the case of new users, we don't want it to seem like the problem you are having is common or part of a design flaw, and thus the only recourse is to implement the modification you have made, especially since that modification has had little testing. Your characterization of the older fence design was starting to sound like what C.S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery", implying that something was inferior simply because it was older.

Nobody is excommunicating you for modifying. Like the field testing you mentioned, we are interested in the how and the why regarding this modification, and in pointing out possible areas of concern to aid in that testing.

I, too, am going to drop out of this thread, since my light-hearted attempt at humor (maybe I'm the only one who thinks both Hilary and Trump are a joke?) has clearly exacerbated an already bruised ego. Such was not my intent, and sorry if I offended you.

[jjbuzard]

Everything Ed just said.

We are concerned / curious when you describe a working design as defective, ...... Your characterization of the older fence design was starting to sound like what C.S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery", implying that something was inferior simply because it was older.

I didn't say it was defective, I said it was clunky, if it wasn't, why was it redesigned not once but twice, 510 -520, TO MAKE IT BETTER, I thought it didn't work well, after using newer designs. Now I find out that every set screw but 2 on my unit is wrong, I didn't change them, it came that way. My intent, to make it better, I have stated that all along, and it does work better.

[dusty]

Everything Ed just said.

We are concerned / curious when you describe a working design as defective, ...... Your characterization of the older fence design was starting to sound like what C.S. Lewis called "chronological snobbery", implying that something was inferior simply because it was older.

I didn't say it was defective, I said it was clunky, if it wasn't, why was it redesigned not once but twice, 510 -520, TO MAKE IT BETTER, I thought it didn't work well, after using newer designs. Now I find out that every set screw but 2 on my unit is wrong, I didn't change them, it came that way. My intent, to make it better, I have stated that all along, and it does work better.

Wrong by what standard? Is it wrong or just different than what you are being told it should be.

There is a thread here on the forum that details the set screws used in the Shopsmith equipment that is more detailed than this but this one icontains the same data.