Drive Belt Quality Concerns

[dusty]

I do have an example, my own.
I'm sure there are several more examples, but most will not want to hang out the dirty laundry here on the forum. And I don't blame them. Hope this satisfies your curiosity Dusty.

I really was not curious, woodburner. I was trying to be sarcastic. I guess I did not do a good job of making that point either.

Okay. You have had problems. I have too. Were they resolved. Mine were in a very satisfactory manner! Did you get new tables. Sure you did.

Were these serious enough to conclude that an operation known for their quality and customer support is on the way down the tubes. I don't think so.

[dickg1]

I must initially state that I have no idea of what I am going to say is anywhere near what is happening. Most likely is not but . . .

When a company is financially strapped and the financial period is coming to a close, some companies will ship a product even if it is damaged so that the sale can be entered on the books. Responsible companies will make good on their product, but it is in the next reporting period and the additional shipping is not a major issue.

Just a thought.

Dick

[Nick]

Chuck, there's no way I'm going to let you get away with tabloid headlines. We've had exactly two complaints about these belts, and that's enough to trip our QC alarm. We're looking into it. (We are aware of the problem and will keep you posted...) If the rest of you feel that a bad batch of belts from the third party supplier is cause all this breast-beating, so be it. But weren't you the same guys that have sung the praises of our Customer Service? If you have a bad belt or a gouged table, send it back. We'll make good; we always do.

Chuck, Gail came to me when you called -- I presume it was you since she had a "Charles" on the the line. She told me that you had a belt that was 1/32" undersized. The specs on our drawings call for 1/2" width and the replacement point is 7/16". If you have been told different by an Academy instructor, you were misinformed. If you told Gail about the bad seam and the uneven width, she did not mention it to me. If she had, I would have had her send you a replacement. Gail would have flagged it for Karen (our DC manager) so that Karen would measure the replacement before she sent it. It's our policy to doublecheck all replacement shipments so you don't have the same bad experience twice.

In short, we have the procedures in place to solve these problems without the dramatics and they work -- not perfectly, but reasonably well. I'll let you all know what QC (Jim McCann) finds when we check the belts, but I would take to heart what Bill Mayo had to say about link belts. I know how V-belts are made and I know that there are always problems with uniformity in width, even with the best of them. Certainly not as bad as your photos show, but problems that result in vibrations nonetheless. I always replace the V-belts on new tools with link belts, no matter who makes the tool or the belt. I also replace all stamped pulleys with machined pulleys. And I haven't replaced a belt or a bearing since I started doing that.

With all good wishes,

[charlese]

I believe some of you have missed the point I tried to make. This was my problem, for not stating my position clearly.

Variable clutch belts are one type of belt. Pulley belts are another type. If any of you have ever snowmobiled, you will quickly recognize a belt that is engineered and manufactured for use between variable sheaves. The old Shopsmith belt was one of those. The newest belt Shopsmith has seen fit to sell as part no.521682 was not designed nor manufactured to specifications suitable for use with variable sheaves. It is a pulley belt. No matter how one looks at it, it will never become a variable sheave belt. The Gates belt in question was designed for use in fixed pulleys where the pressure is applied to the center of it, not the sides. It will run smoothly in that application in spite of any bulges on the sides. The sides of the Gates belt are concave rather than flat. This is typical of fixed pulley belts. Bulges on the sides are not normally a problem for a belt of the Gates 2260 configuration. (Similarly, Link belts are also designed for pulley type of application, and not designed for use inside of variable sheaves.)

Yes, my new belt has bulges. Maybe all do not, but I would bet a good percentage do. Putting the bulges aside - the new belt just barely reaches the diameter where it was recommended to discard our old belts.

My unhappiness is focused at the company's decision to change belts. I have no knowledge of why that decision was made - it is my guess it was made for financial reasons. If this is true, it was a very questionable decision. If it was a financial decision, the company must have assumed the customers would refuse to pay for the increased costs. Either that or the Company thought the increased cost for a supply of belts was more than they could afford. Someone found this cheaper belt that nominally met the size desired. The problem here is the Gates belt in question is not the same animal. It is designed for pulley use not variable speed use.

[charlese]

Chuck, there's no way I'm going to let you get away with tabloid headlines. We've had exactly two complaints about these belts, and that's enough to trip our QC alarm. We're looking into it.

Thanks, Nick. That was really what I asked for! Look into it! I still have a few more miles left on my old belt - The one in the photos. Guess I'll take my new belt off for a while. It will have several years wear remaining.

My concern was not personal. As said earlier, my concern is for future smooth operations of Mark Vs and the Company.

[Ed in Tampa]

Okay
Nick is checking the belts to see if there is a problem with their quality. But I think Chuck has made the point that a v belt for a stationary pulley system is different than a variable ratio pulley belt. My question is the belt I received from Shopsmith is it a correct replacement belt for my application or not? I'm so confused ??????

Nick can I ask a question if link belts are better than v belts why doesn't Shopsmith sell them as an upgrade? Seems like another product that could being in a little more operating capital to me.

Chuck please let us know if you hear anything about the belts. I was going to change my drive belt but I think I will wait at least until this gets settled. Now I wish I had waited to order it.
Ed

[jmoore65]

Bill,

I'm not well versed in the ways of belts and pulleys, so have some questions on your post about using v-belts.

I have been using 1/2" link belts on my Shopsmiths for many years. Vibration was eliminated for most of my headstocks. Since I do not log large amount of hours on my headstocks, I have not seen any excessive wearing of the sheaves.

Are link belts known for causing more wear on pulleys/sheaves than regular belts?

I check once a year. It does keep the sheave's belt surface looking clean.

Clean because the v-belt doesn't leave residue behind or because it is abrading the surface?

I had to reset the high speed adjustment when using these belts.

What was involved in the high speed adjustment?

Thanks,

Jim

[jmoore65]

My unhappiness is focused at the company's decision to change belts. I have no knowledge of why that decision was made - it is my guess it was made for financial reasons. If this is true, it was a very questionable decision.

This seems like a rush to judgement to me, and it makes me uncomfortable. I could make several different reasonable guesses why ShopSmith provided this particular belt to you. My Dad always told me it was easier to judge a man's actions than his intent. I can understand your dissapointment, but your (to me) disparaging "financial reasons" comment seems a tad premature at this point. Shouldn't ShopSmith have a chance to respond to the problem first?

The problem here is the Gates belt in question is not the same animal. It is designed for pulley use not variable speed use.

This seems more oriented towards information sharing/gathering and problem solving. Your description of the ins and outs of belts made sense to me - but since I'm not an expert on such things, I know there can be other issues involved. I'm looking forward to learning more about pulleys/sheaves and belts :-)

I greatly appreciate the effort people put into this forum to help solve problems - and teach knowledge that is hard to find anymore (especially in the world of throw away things). Thanks again Chuck for sharing your knowledge of fixed vs variable sheave belts.

All the best,

Jim

[billmayo]

Bill,
I'm not well versed in the ways of belts and pulleys, so have some questions on your post about using v-belts.

I love to try different solutions to any preceived problems that I may have. I do not always read specifications but I just use whatever appears to be a solution for me. I only install Shopsmith belts on my customers headstocks. I experiment with my Shopsmiths all the time. I have used links belts for many many years with machined pulleys. The 10ER has fixed pulleys so the cog or link belt will work very well for them.

Are link belts known for causing more wear on pulleys/sheaves than regular belts?

I read that link belts on aluminum pulleys will wear them and was not recommended. I like the idea of no vibration so I switched to link belts in the 90s for my headstocks. I have not seen any noticeable wear on the sheaves but I am sure some wear is beening done.

Clean because the v-belt doesn't leave residue behind or because it is abrading the surface?

I am finding a lot of residue on the sheaves from the regular motor belt. If the shopsmith headstock is not operated for long periods of time, the residue can become like glue and the belt can really stick to the sheaves. I had to cut a couple belts to get the sheaves out when the headstock had set for 5-6 years without operating. The link belts so far are leaving the sheaves belt surface shiney so there must be some minor wear. Link belts did cost me 3-4 times as much as a V-belt for the Shopsmith when I started using them but have gotten much cheaper lately (China made?). I use link belts on all my projects as I can build any length I need quickly.

What was involved in the high speed adjustment?
Jim

Since the Shopsmith motor belt is 26 1/2" long, the link and cog belts I have been using are around 26" long. Since the belt lengths are different, I have to readjust the high speed to get the full Speed Control Dial travel from SLOW to FAST and the max speed of 5200 RPM. I use a tach to set the max speed. I have not figured out the reason why, just that it requires resetting.

[judaspre1982]

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