Speed reducer cons?

[ERLover]

That is why an old cast iron ER with the Speed Changer for a couple hundred is such a bargain. Just ask me, my nephew, or/and Skou.
I am surprised he/Skou has not been here with that already!!!

[jsburger]

That is why an old cast iron ER with the Speed Changer for a couple hundred is such a bargain. Just ask me, my nephew, or/and Skou.
I am surprised he/Skou has not been here with that already!!!

But the ER with speed changer will not get you down to 100 RPM like the MK V speed reducer. Even the Power Pro only goes down to 250 RPM .

[ERLover]

That is why an old cast iron ER with the Speed Changer for a couple hundred is such a bargain. Just ask me, my nephew, or/and Skou.
I am surprised he/Skou has not been here with that already!!!

But the ER with speed changer will not get you down to 100 RPM like the MK V speed reducer. Even the Power Pro only goes down to 250 RPM .

Thanks John, did not know the specs, I thought the PP went down to almost nothing, but never checked into it. Thats why you, JPG, Dusty ect are so valuable here!!!

[JPG]

Just for 'what ifs', can a speed reducer be made/modified to work on a model 10? 250/7 ≈ 35

quill/way tube separation and way tube spacing.

[BuckeyeDennis]

Just for 'what ifs', can a speed reducer be made/modified to work on a model 10? 250/7 ≈ 35

quill/way tube separation and way tube spacing.

I took a look at that a while back. The regular speed-reducer way-tube bracket doesn't fit, but IIRC it would be easy enough to gin up one that does.

The real problem is where the speed reducer clamps onto the quill housing. The clamping surface on the 10E/R is much too short, if memory serves. I didn't see any straightforward way to adapt it.

If I ever get serious about extending the speed range of a 10E/R, I'll probably mount 1-2 hp, 3-phase motor on the machine and power it from a VFD. I recently got a good deal on a 2 hp, three-phase dust collector. So I bought a 3hp TECO/Westinghouse VFD for it. That cost $200 retail, and so is pretty comparable to a used speed reducer. And now I have a variable speed/noise dust collector.

Around here, three-phase motors can be bought quite cheaply on CL. And since they don't have a starting circuit, they are considerably more reliable. The bearings and windings are the only parts that can go bad.

[JPG]

Just for 'what ifs', can a speed reducer be made/modified to work on a model 10? 250/7 ≈ 35

quill/way tube separation and way tube spacing.

I took a look at that a while back. The regular speed-reducer way-tube bracket doesn't fit, but IIRC it would be easy enough to gin up one that does.

The real problem is where the speed reducer clamps onto the quill housing. The clamping surface on the 10E/R is much too short, if memory serves. I didn't see any straightforward way to adapt it.

If I ever get serious about extending the speed range of a 10E/R, I'll probably mount 1-2 hp, 3-phase motor on the machine and power it from a VFD. I recently got a good deal on a 2 hp, three-phase dust collector. So I bought a 3hp TECO/Westinghouse VFD for it. That cost $200 retail, and so is pretty comparable to a used speed reducer. And now I have a variable speed/noise dust collector.

Around here, three-phase motors can be bought quite cheaply on CL. And since they don't have a starting circuit, they are considerably more reliable. The bearings and windings are the only parts that can go bad.

WHERE?

[jsburger]

Just for 'what ifs', can a speed reducer be made/modified to work on a model 10? 250/7 ≈ 35

quill/way tube separation and way tube spacing.

I took a look at that a while back. The regular speed-reducer way-tube bracket doesn't fit, but IIRC it would be easy enough to gin up one that does.

The real problem is where the speed reducer clamps onto the quill housing. The clamping surface on the 10E/R is much too short, if memory serves. I didn't see any straightforward way to adapt it.

If I ever get serious about extending the speed range of a 10E/R, I'll probably mount 1-2 hp, 3-phase motor on the machine and power it from a VFD. I recently got a good deal on a 2 hp, three-phase dust collector. So I bought a 3hp TECO/Westinghouse VFD for it. That cost $200 retail, and so is pretty comparable to a used speed reducer. And now I have a variable speed/noise dust collector.

Around here, three-phase motors can be bought quite cheaply on CL. And since they don't have a starting circuit, they are considerably more reliable. The bearings and windings are the only parts that can go bad.

WHERE?

When I was still working for the Air Force as a civilian I designed and built a small test stand drive the T-38 Tac Generator for testing after repair. I used a 3Phase motor and VFD to get the specific RPM's required.

Those parts were obtained from...

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Ov ... log/Drives

That was 7 or 8 years ago. At that time they probably had one of the largest selections of VFD's at the best prices. The nice thing about a VFD is that you don't need 3 phase power. The VFD is single phase input and 3 phase output. The other thing to keep in mind is that "regular" 3 phase motors are designed to run at a particular speed. This is mostly due to providing adequate cooling. If you run them slower than the designed speed there is a chance they will over heat due to inadequate cooling.

The motor that should be used with a VFD is an inverter duty motor. They have more robust insulation and heavier windings to withstand the voltage spikes that VFD controllers put out and can withstand the additional heat from running at slow speeds.

Automationdirect has both drives and the inverter duty motors.

[BuckeyeDennis]

Just for 'what ifs', can a speed reducer be made/modified to work on a model 10? 250/7 ≈ 35

quill/way tube separation and way tube spacing.

I took a look at that a while back. The regular speed-reducer way-tube bracket doesn't fit, but IIRC it would be easy enough to gin up one that does.

The real problem is where the speed reducer clamps onto the quill housing. The clamping surface on the 10E/R is much too short, if memory serves. I didn't see any straightforward way to adapt it.

If I ever get serious about extending the speed range of a 10E/R, I'll probably mount 1-2 hp, 3-phase motor on the machine and power it from a VFD. I recently got a good deal on a 2 hp, three-phase dust collector. So I bought a 3hp TECO/Westinghouse VFD for it. That cost $200 retail, and so is pretty comparable to a used speed reducer. And now I have a variable speed/noise dust collector.

Around here, three-phase motors can be bought quite cheaply on CL. And since they don't have a starting circuit, they are considerably more reliable. The bearings and windings are the only parts that can go bad.

WHERE?

Here.

I also checked AutomationDirect and Amazon. The TECO/Westinghouse pricing at FactoryMation was better than no-name pricing at AutomationDirect. (Mind you, I've specified a lot of equipment from Automation Direct, and it was all good stuff.) Amazon has some Chinese units for less, but the reviews there didn't exactly give me the warm fuzzies. I've seen a lot of good reviews for TECO FM50's, and the user manual is decent.

[BuckeyeDennis]

I took a look at that a while back. The regular speed-reducer way-tube bracket doesn't fit, but IIRC it would be easy enough to gin up one that does.

The real problem is where the speed reducer clamps onto the quill housing. The clamping surface on the 10E/R is much too short, if memory serves. I didn't see any straightforward way to adapt it.

If I ever get serious about extending the speed range of a 10E/R, I'll probably mount 1-2 hp, 3-phase motor on the machine and power it from a VFD. I recently got a good deal on a 2 hp, three-phase dust collector. So I bought a 3hp TECO/Westinghouse VFD for it. That cost $200 retail, and so is pretty comparable to a used speed reducer. And now I have a variable speed/noise dust collector.

Around here, three-phase motors can be bought quite cheaply on CL. And since they don't have a starting circuit, they are considerably more reliable. The bearings and windings are the only parts that can go bad.

WHERE?

When I was still working for the Air Force as a civilian I designed and built a small test stand drive the T-38 Tac Generator for testing after repair. I used a 3Phase motor and VFD to get the specific RPM's required.

Those parts were obtained from...

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Ov ... log/Drives

That was 7 or 8 years ago. At that time they probably had one of the largest selections of VFD's at the best prices. The nice thing about a VFD is that you don't need 3 phase power. The VFD is single phase input and 3 phase output. The other thing to keep in mind is that "regular" 3 phase motors are designed to run at a particular speed. This is mostly due to providing adequate cooling. If you run them slower than the designed speed there is a chance they will over heat due to inadequate cooling.

The motor that should be used with a VFD is an inverter duty motor. They have more robust insulation and heavier windings to withstand the voltage spikes that VFD controllers put out and can withstand the additional heat from running at slow speeds.

Automationdirect has both drives and the inverter duty motors.

I agree that you should really use an inverter-duty motor for a military or industrial installation. Or at least you should install shaft-grounding brushes (to protect the bearings), and a line reactor between the VFD and the motor to suppress the voltage spikes.

But this is for very light home use, and I expect that a conventional 3-phase motor will last longer than I do. I've read many reports of woodworkers and machine-tool hobbyists using FM50's with conventional motors, with no problems reported.

The FM50 provides the motor thermal-overload function, which you set to match the continuous-duty rating of your motor. It also lets you choose the de-rating curve for operation at lower speeds. But for home woodworking, the operating duty factor is so low that it probably doesn't matter, as long as the motor is large enough to providing the peak running torque required for sawing.

A typical 3-phase induction motor can get darned hot before you cook it. NEMA Class F windings are rated for an operating temperature rating of 155C (311F), at which point the case is likely to run 100C (212F). My free-to-me 7.5 rotary-phase-converter motor is a Class B, which is rated to run at 130C (266F). So the motor can get hot enough to burn your hand, and still be operating within specs.

[jsburger]

When I was still working for the Air Force as a civilian I designed and built a small test stand drive the T-38 Tac Generator for testing after repair. I used a 3Phase motor and VFD to get the specific RPM's required.

Those parts were obtained from...

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Ov ... log/Drives

That was 7 or 8 years ago. At that time they probably had one of the largest selections of VFD's at the best prices. The nice thing about a VFD is that you don't need 3 phase power. The VFD is single phase input and 3 phase output. The other thing to keep in mind is that "regular" 3 phase motors are designed to run at a particular speed. This is mostly due to providing adequate cooling. If you run them slower than the designed speed there is a chance they will over heat due to inadequate cooling.

The motor that should be used with a VFD is an inverter duty motor. They have more robust insulation and heavier windings to withstand the voltage spikes that VFD controllers put out and can withstand the additional heat from running at slow speeds.

Automationdirect has both drives and the inverter duty motors.

I agree that you should really use an inverter-duty motor for a military or industrial installation. Or at least you should install shaft-grounding brushes (to protect the bearings), and a line reactor between the VFD and the motor to suppress the voltage spikes.

But this is for very light home use, and I expect that a conventional 3-phase motor will last longer than I do. I've read many reports of woodworkers and machine-tool hobbyists using FM50's with conventional motors, with no problems reported.

The FM50 provides the motor thermal-overload function, which you set to match the continuous-duty rating of your motor. It also lets you choose the de-rating curve for operation at lower speeds. But for home woodworking, the operating duty factor is so low that it probably doesn't matter, as long as the motor is large enough to providing the peak running torque required for sawing.

A typical 3-phase induction motor can get darned hot before you cook it. NEMA Class F windings are rated for an operating temperature rating of 155C (311F), at which point the case is likely to run 100C (212F). My free-to-me 7.5 rotary-phase-converter motor is a Class B, which is rated to run at 130C (266F). So the motor can get hot enough to burn your hand, and still be operating within specs.

I certainly don't disagree with anything you said.