Garage workshop improvements

[Ed in Tampa]

Just got my first quote... a little sticker shock considering what they intend to charge for labor.

I got a quote for a 25 SEER 12K BTU Fujitsu unit which would cost total of $4200 installed.

I have found a more efficient (likely better) Fujitsu unit online, a 29.3 SEER unit shipped free for $1726.68.

https://www.ecomfort.com/Fujitsu-12RLS3/p65508.html

Labor alone will cost $4200-1726.68 = $2473.32.

I think it's a bit on the high side for labor costs for a days work. I would understand that kind of pricing if ducting was required.

Am I way off base here? It just seems like a lot of money to pay for them to come out for a day to drill a hole in my house, run the refrigerant tubing and charge, connect electricity, maybe throw down a small concrete/rock base, and do some final checks.

If there are any HVAC guys or guys with some experience in the HVAC field or do some amount of mini-split work, does this seem about right for general labor costs or are they gouging me just a bit.

Cheers,
John

PS. I know benush had stated like $360 for labor... that seemed low to me, but ~$2500 seems ridiculous for what amounts for a half days work for a professional.

I have a buddy that does AC work. He says the high prices come from two facts. Most people do not understand AC so It is magic to them for which they think they must pay for. Much like TV repair back in the day. Second most units last a fairly long time so to stay in business you either need a very huge customer base or charge enough per job to carry you to the next job.

That said my friend replaces my 3 1/2 ton outdoor compressor and still makes a profit charging me $600 I pay him $800 knowing he is playing close to cuff and to have any other AC company do it would cost me $2000+

Again think about the job. They have to come out, employee is being paid, truck and equipment costs, parts copper tubing is not cheap. Then you have ridiculous Freon costs. Then add the fact they have to build a margin for warrantee work. Your unit may fail but the manufacture probably isn't going to reimburse an installer if it fails shortly after installation.

I watched my buddy go through three compressors before getting one that worked. All equip costs were covered but not his time.

[Sazerac81]

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[Sazerac81]

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[robinson46176]

That should work well for you.

Now that you have decided I will tell you why I changed my mind this week on a mini-split. My decision does not relate to your situation so I had not mentioned it but offer my reasons now just as information follow up since it may relate to some folks with basement shops.
As background neither my wife nor I grew up with AC (or running water or indoor bathrooms in the earlier days) so house AC is considered a luxury not a need. I do enjoy it more as time goes by.
My heating and cooling systems tend to a bit freaky as you might expect if you know me. Any "expert" will tell you that what I do will not work even though it has served us well for a number of years with outdoor temps ranging from 98 degrees down to 20 below zero. Several factors affect its operation. The house is large... 3,200 square feet on the main floor (40' x 80' foot print) and the basement is a little over 1,500 sq. ft. That is what we heat and cool. There is another 300 sq. ft. upstairs that we are slowly finishing out and another area about that size that is only storage but all of the upstairs closes off with one door so I don't factor it into heating and cooling the rest of the house.
All of that basement wants badly to stay around 55 to 60 degrees so it requires minimal heating or cooling either one. For years in the summer I would open the back of the furnace and run the blower to suck in that cool air and distribute it to the main floor. Hardly AC but it did help.
When we decided that we wanted to be a little cooler we bought a small unit and stuck it in the only window AC friendly window we have. The idea we had was that if needed we could close off much of the house in really hot weather and spend much of our time in a few rooms at least in the hot part of the day on the worst days. We picked up a simple 10,200 BTU 115Volt Air at Wally World and stuck it in the window. After that part of the house cooled down I started the furnace blower ("fan" switch on the thermostat) and lo and behold the whole house cooled down... It was quite hot so it took a few days for everything to stabilize but it did. Not only did it work just fine it has continued to do well for quite a few years now. I still have people try to tell me that it could not possibly work even though "it works" every year. I believe that the biggest factor is all of that basement with all of that concrete in addition to the house generally being well insulated.
Now in fairness I must say that we cool our house, we do not refrigerate our house... If the outside temp is 98 the house may only cool to the upper 70's but the air is dry and moving and feels much cooler than that. In more normal summer temps it will hold temps much cooler. The only problem area is a slant wall all glass solar room on the south-west corner. We do shut that off in extreme heat. We are going to cure that this year with some shades inside and some wood slat awnings outside. That room was a mistake...
I had decided to replace that AC with a mini-split with a heat pump function and I still think that is a good system but decided on a different route based solely on my own circumstances (and eccentricities ).
Yesterday we drove over to our closest Lowes and special ordered an Amana 17,300 BTU 230 Volt Air with a heat pump supplied supplemental heat, $830.19...
Several factors made my choice. First is money but that was not a major factor. I am now done spending on it. I need to relocate a now unused 230V 30Amp feed to that part of the house over to that location. but that won't cost me anything. No installation cost.
Putting in a mini-split would have put me in the possible future service call club and I have spent all of my life avoiding that whole area when ever I could. If I have a problem in extreme hot weather I (or my son ) can yank the problem unit out and stick in a temporary spare in its place until it is fixed or replaced (yes, I have a couple of "spares" ).
I'll reroute that 230V line this week and the AC should be here in about a week and it will be here and done... I just wish that one window was above the basement instead of the very tight crawl-space. Not a fan of tight crawl-spaces.
The heat pump function should heat the house alone and efficiently in mild weather then when it needs help the baseboard resistance heat will kick in and if the baseboard heat is running very much we will fire up the 160,000 BTU wood/coal furnace and let the light meter rest.



.

[Sazerac81]

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[Sazerac81]

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[benush26]

Also, the SilveRboard actually was not as messy to cut to size as well (significantly less clean up of small foam kernels). I felt the foam of the garage door kit was less compact and led to a bigger mess as it was cut, even when using a very sharp razor. An easy clean up with a vacuum, but still, the foam kernels tend to get on everything. If I was not as worried about aesthetics of the garage door, I'd go all SilveRboard due to its slightly better R Value and the Radiant heat shield capabilities. And the price difference is negligible.

John

When I was helping a friend, he would mark the foil surface with a Sharpie, just score the foil with a blade and then make the foam cuts with a cheap HF hot knife. No messy foam kernels to clean up at all. I've borrowed that knife a few times when cutting foam panels to size to fit into gaps in crawls spaces. I just looked and the HF knife is $20 and I am certain he bought his on sale for closer to $15 (maybe used a 25% off coupon?)

Just a thought.

Be well,
Ben

[robinson46176]

That should work well for you.

Now that you have decided I will tell you why I changed my mind this week on a mini-split. My decision does not relate to your situation so I had not mentioned it but offer my reasons now just as information follow up since it may relate to some folks with basement shops.
As background neither my wife nor I grew up with AC (or running water or indoor bathrooms in the earlier days) so house AC is considered a luxury not a need. I do enjoy it more as time goes by.
My heating and cooling systems tend to a bit freaky as you might expect if you know me. Any "expert" will tell you that what I do will not work even though it has served us well for a number of years with outdoor temps ranging from 98 degrees down to 20 below zero. Several factors affect its operation. The house is large... 3,200 square feet on the main floor (40' x 80' foot print) and the basement is a little over 1,500 sq. ft. That is what we heat and cool. There is another 300 sq. ft. upstairs that we are slowly finishing out and another area about that size that is only storage but all of the upstairs closes off with one door so I don't factor it into heating and cooling the rest of the house.
All of that basement wants badly to stay around 55 to 60 degrees so it requires minimal heating or cooling either one. For years in the summer I would open the back of the furnace and run the blower to suck in that cool air and distribute it to the main floor. Hardly AC but it did help.
When we decided that we wanted to be a little cooler we bought a small unit and stuck it in the only window AC friendly window we have. The idea we had was that if needed we could close off much of the house in really hot weather and spend much of our time in a few rooms at least in the hot part of the day on the worst days. We picked up a simple 10,200 BTU 115Volt Air at Wally World and stuck it in the window. After that part of the house cooled down I started the furnace blower ("fan" switch on the thermostat) and lo and behold the whole house cooled down... It was quite hot so it took a few days for everything to stabilize but it did. Not only did it work just fine it has continued to do well for quite a few years now. I still have people try to tell me that it could not possibly work even though "it works" every year. I believe that the biggest factor is all of that basement with all of that concrete in addition to the house generally being well insulated.
Now in fairness I must say that we cool our house, we do not refrigerate our house... If the outside temp is 98 the house may only cool to the upper 70's but the air is dry and moving and feels much cooler than that. In more normal summer temps it will hold temps much cooler. The only problem area is a slant wall all glass solar room on the south-west corner. We do shut that off in extreme heat. We are going to cure that this year with some shades inside and some wood slat awnings outside. That room was a mistake...
I had decided to replace that AC with a mini-split with a heat pump function and I still think that is a good system but decided on a different route based solely on my own circumstances (and eccentricities ).
Yesterday we drove over to our closest Lowes and special ordered an Amana 17,300 BTU 230 Volt Air with a heat pump supplied supplemental heat, $830.19...
Several factors made my choice. First is money but that was not a major factor. I am now done spending on it. I need to relocate a now unused 230V 30Amp feed to that part of the house over to that location. but that won't cost me anything. No installation cost.
Putting in a mini-split would have put me in the possible future service call club and I have spent all of my life avoiding that whole area when ever I could. If I have a problem in extreme hot weather I (or my son ) can yank the problem unit out and stick in a temporary spare in its place until it is fixed or replaced (yes, I have a couple of "spares" ).
I'll reroute that 230V line this week and the AC should be here in about a week and it will be here and done... I just wish that one window was above the basement instead of the very tight crawl-space. Not a fan of tight crawl-spaces.
The heat pump function should heat the house alone and efficiently in mild weather then when it needs help the baseboard resistance heat will kick in and if the baseboard heat is running very much we will fire up the 160,000 BTU wood/coal furnace and let the light meter rest.

.

Just a follow-up On how the above approach is turning out...
It's doing exactly as I hoped it would. I don't mind cutting firewood along but as I get older I don't like cutting large amounts of it any more. The plan for the AC / heat pump was for it to provide the heat on days that are not really cold but that do require some heat since it requires almost as much wood to heat in milder weather (day time temps in the 40's) as it does in much colder weather. It is doing its job perfectly as hoped. The AC function loafed through the summer at a very reasonable level of power use and we have only used the wood furnace maybe half a dozen days so far. Most of those days had daytime highs in the 30's and lows in the mid 20's. There have been a couple of nights that dropped into the mid 20's when I did just let the electric resistance heating make up the extra heat needed because the next day was going to be in the 40's (Yes, I am getting more lazy)
.
It is in the mid 20's right now and I really should have built a fire last night but I'm in the middle of a bad stiff neck / painful upper back problem this week so I'm just letting the heat pump and one house resistance unit carry things. The next 7 days are calling for temps here that the heat pump will handle alone.
Exact cost are hard to sort out since as a farm I have other changing power cost, like about 5,000+ watts of horse tank heaters and heat tapes and more lighting required in the shops. Those units are on thermostats and only come on at about 40 degrees but may run 1 hour one day but 24 hours the next. Still I am quite satisfied with the cost I am seeing. The heat pump is claimed to be 70% more efficient than the resistance heat and I believe that is a pretty reasonable claim.
I also like not burning slow smoldering fires in the wood / coal furnace. Those are the source of most chimney creosoting and by only burning it when pretty cold it is keeping the chimney very clean.

Any who... I'm happy.

[bigmoguls]

Just throwing in my 2 cents.

I live in Houston and do my woodworking in the garage. My garage is 550sq. ft. It has an insulated garage door and all but the long, 35' wall are insulated.

I had a 2T mitsubishi mini-split system installed for about $5k. That includes $500 for the AC power disconnect for the outdoor unit. I had 3 quotes, one company wanted $9k! I called the owner and voiced my displeasure at their attempted thievery.

I am very pleased with the unit. I only use it when I am in the garage working. It does a great job of cooling the garage quickly, it is very, very, very quiet. I have actually considered installing one in our master bedroom so we can cool just the bedroom to <70F for better sleep.

[Sazerac81]

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