Wow this is a great discussion on router tables. I recently decided I want a free standing router table. I have had free standing tables or cabinets in the past bothof them fell short of doing the job. Several years ago my bride blessed me with a Sears steel router table that was badly designed and nearly impossible to adjust or even install the router under. Then I built a cabinet thinking the storage would be really handy. Mine wasn't near as well designed or made as the one shown here.
This time I decided on the Incra Table with extruded frame stand and LS fence (similar but smaller to the TSIII and uses my existing Incra Wonder Fence). It has levelers. I need those in my shop. The stand is open with an offset router mounting plate. For my limitations having the offset on the left end of the table allows me better/safer axcess. The openess of the stand allows better ability to make adjustments and much easier clean up than a cabinet. The size fits very well in the area I cleared for it. The wheel kit will make moving it around a snap. No I won't be willing to place any bets on whether this is the final configuration. It arrives late next week and I have a project in mind to try it out. Thanks for all the great info. Incidentally the folks at Incra are clearly of the same thinking and have the same service desire as our friends at Shopsmith. I learned a great deal about my needs and options available from the fellow at Incra. I am thrilled my friends at Shopsmith introduced me to them. For those who question where the componants are made. All in the USA. fjimp
New SS Decisions. 520 Pro-Fence or Jointech
Moderator: admin
Originally Posted by a1gutterman
Although I respect Rick Davis' woodworking abilities and opinions, his is a personal opinion. There are plenty of other woodworkers that do like the overarm router system. After seeing what it can do, it is definitely on my want list.
A) The OPR is perfect for blind mortises because you can see where the bit is. No need for stop blocks and trial pieces. It is just easier to use than one of my tables.
B) The OPR, in my experience, is more accurate than a table router. For example - in vertical position - Router depth setting is made with the stop screw and set-up blocks. The table is moved with the aid of the adjustable stop collar ring (the same one used for setting table height for sawing operations). When used in the vertical position, the fence is moved in increments of less than 1/128" with the stop collar. In contrast -- loosening one side of the fence on a table router and tapping on that side to set depth is pretty crude!
C) After a few times setting up the OPR it is an easy operation. At first, it was frustrating as there are almost an infinite number of placements on the way tubes and also numerous setting of the SS table height. After a few uses it almost becomes second nature on how to set it up and/or how to move the unit.
Since I don't have a router for each table, the set up for table routing requires moving the motor to each operation. Router bases make it easy to mount the motor in the tables, so my one router serves three uses. At around $200 a crack for routers - this works for me. Actually I use both the OPR and the table. The one and only operation I recently did not do on the OPR was Venetian blind louvers. It was easier for me to make a jig for the table than the OPR.
If I have a few edges to rout, I will choose the table. For joint work I choose the OPR
Today in making my latest project I have designed several mortises and grooves at different depths to give interlocking joints. When one mortise edge was off by 1/64" it was a very simple thing to fix with the adjustable stop collar.
Just for kicks, I have included a sketch of the joints I designed for this project. Yes, it is a little overkill, but very do-able with the OPR. Frankly, I would have had one hell of a time with one of my tables.
In the first Photo, the caliper shows a 3/8" stopped mortise that is exactly 3/16" from the edge, to allow a good fit with a 3/4" board. This photo also shows a 3/8" stopped mortise (only 3/4" long) that lays perfectly against a 1/4" groove. That stopped 3/8" mortise is 9/16" deep, while the 1/4" groove is 1/4" deep. Setting a fence on a router table to do this would take a few test pieces.
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Although I respect Rick Davis' woodworking abilities and opinions, his is a personal opinion. There are plenty of other woodworkers that do like the overarm router system. After seeing what it can do, it is definitely on my want list.
Hi, Dusty! I'm like Tim, in that when I heard Rick Davis say (at a Traveling Academy) he didn't like the OPR, I was shocked. When I asked him why, he just replied it's his bias. If we choose to prefer Nick's opinion - he loves the OPR. I really prefer mine to either of my two router tables. My reasons and photos follow -dusty wrote:I respect Rick's opinion as well. However, what do you typically use the router for and what projects would you plan on the OPR that can not be done with a standard router table.
Picture please, if you have them, Tim.
A) The OPR is perfect for blind mortises because you can see where the bit is. No need for stop blocks and trial pieces. It is just easier to use than one of my tables.
B) The OPR, in my experience, is more accurate than a table router. For example - in vertical position - Router depth setting is made with the stop screw and set-up blocks. The table is moved with the aid of the adjustable stop collar ring (the same one used for setting table height for sawing operations). When used in the vertical position, the fence is moved in increments of less than 1/128" with the stop collar. In contrast -- loosening one side of the fence on a table router and tapping on that side to set depth is pretty crude!
C) After a few times setting up the OPR it is an easy operation. At first, it was frustrating as there are almost an infinite number of placements on the way tubes and also numerous setting of the SS table height. After a few uses it almost becomes second nature on how to set it up and/or how to move the unit.
Since I don't have a router for each table, the set up for table routing requires moving the motor to each operation. Router bases make it easy to mount the motor in the tables, so my one router serves three uses. At around $200 a crack for routers - this works for me. Actually I use both the OPR and the table. The one and only operation I recently did not do on the OPR was Venetian blind louvers. It was easier for me to make a jig for the table than the OPR.
If I have a few edges to rout, I will choose the table. For joint work I choose the OPR
Today in making my latest project I have designed several mortises and grooves at different depths to give interlocking joints. When one mortise edge was off by 1/64" it was a very simple thing to fix with the adjustable stop collar.
Just for kicks, I have included a sketch of the joints I designed for this project. Yes, it is a little overkill, but very do-able with the OPR. Frankly, I would have had one hell of a time with one of my tables.
In the first Photo, the caliper shows a 3/8" stopped mortise that is exactly 3/16" from the edge, to allow a good fit with a 3/4" board. This photo also shows a 3/8" stopped mortise (only 3/4" long) that lays perfectly against a 1/4" groove. That stopped 3/8" mortise is 9/16" deep, while the 1/4" groove is 1/4" deep. Setting a fence on a router table to do this would take a few test pieces.
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Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Maybe we need to move this to a new thread... I think the discussion is getting away from the question and direction of the subject and of what this started out as a decision has become something quite different.
The Jointech system pictured has a router lift, I'm guessing it can change the bit height by .001" steps, the fence works in .001" steps and the router plate can be adjusted to create a flat to table top arrangement. The table looks like an older one I have that I got from Jointech years ago and is the high quality type and thick. Unless it has been stored wrong or been damaged my guess it is that it is well within reason for a router table flatness wise. My guess back when this was new it went for well over $1000 for the system.
This is not cheap junk and performs extremly well, the question is what is the needs of the new owner, if it is sold as used equipment how much can you expect to get for it and how would some sort of new replacement cost. My guess this system is better then 90% of the people here would ever need, and better then 95% have. So as a recap, to sell it and buy something else will either require you spend a lot more of your money or settle for some thing less they you already have.
However lot depends on how much use you have for a router system in what you do in your shop. I personally use my router stuff a lot... it is hard for me to do any project without finding a use for a router on it. I got my first router about 1976, the same time I got my shopsmith. A year or two later I got my first router table which built my first ultimate system around. I can't see any shop with out at least a couple of routers and tables but that is my pro router stance. Some people find that the shopsmith set up as a router or shaper works fine for them... some just you sandpaper to round edges and are happy with that. If you happen to have $700-$800 you could even pick up some hand planes for doing profiles.
Ed
The Jointech system pictured has a router lift, I'm guessing it can change the bit height by .001" steps, the fence works in .001" steps and the router plate can be adjusted to create a flat to table top arrangement. The table looks like an older one I have that I got from Jointech years ago and is the high quality type and thick. Unless it has been stored wrong or been damaged my guess it is that it is well within reason for a router table flatness wise. My guess back when this was new it went for well over $1000 for the system.
This is not cheap junk and performs extremly well, the question is what is the needs of the new owner, if it is sold as used equipment how much can you expect to get for it and how would some sort of new replacement cost. My guess this system is better then 90% of the people here would ever need, and better then 95% have. So as a recap, to sell it and buy something else will either require you spend a lot more of your money or settle for some thing less they you already have.
However lot depends on how much use you have for a router system in what you do in your shop. I personally use my router stuff a lot... it is hard for me to do any project without finding a use for a router on it. I got my first router about 1976, the same time I got my shopsmith. A year or two later I got my first router table which built my first ultimate system around. I can't see any shop with out at least a couple of routers and tables but that is my pro router stance. Some people find that the shopsmith set up as a router or shaper works fine for them... some just you sandpaper to round edges and are happy with that. If you happen to have $700-$800 you could even pick up some hand planes for doing profiles.
Ed
{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]
I dont mind the router discussion. I have three different setups (OPR, Speed Increaser, Jointech Router Lift) and need to decide which one to keep. After this discussion,I am actually thinking of selling the shopsmith as a bare-bones setup with a couple floating tables and not much else. This will let me keep the two talbe setups and the three router sets and just use them. Problem is the shop is not heated and its getting cold so most of the work might have to wait till spring and line up some projects to use each with.
I use my SS stuff as a hobby and never am rushed or mind switching setups. It will force me to get more familiar with the Jointech stuff. (as well as the shopsmith router sets.)
I have a couple other mystery pics if anyone is still interested in helping identify?
I use my SS stuff as a hobby and never am rushed or mind switching setups. It will force me to get more familiar with the Jointech stuff. (as well as the shopsmith router sets.)
I have a couple other mystery pics if anyone is still interested in helping identify?
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a1gutterman
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 3653
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:45 am
- Location: "close to" Seattle
Hi dusty,dusty wrote:I respect Rick's opinion as well. However, what do you typically use the router for and what projects would you plan on the OPR that can not be done with a standard router table.
Picture please, if you have them, Tim.
I typically use my routers for edging, dados and rabbets, stile and rail joints, creating raised panels, cutting "T" slots, drawer glides, cut-outs for door hinges and strikes, laminate trimming and just about anything that I think they will work for. Several of those operations, IMHO, could be accomplished easier with the OPR, due to the improved visibility it offers. On top of that, being a pin router, the OPR wood enable me to make easy copies of plaques and other such items.
BTW, I did knot say that you could knot do these operations without the OPR]am[/I] saying that the OPR wood make them easier to do.
matpoh, bring on the other unidentified items!
Tim
Buying US made products will help keep YOUR job or retirement funds safer.
Buying US made products will help keep YOUR job or retirement funds safer.
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dusty
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 21481
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
- Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona
Tim, I am not arguing against the OPR; I would have one if I could afford it as another accessory to my shop.a1gutterman wrote:Hi dusty,
I typically use my routers for edging, dados and rabbets, stile and rail joints, creating raised panels, cutting "T" slots, drawer glides, cut-outs for door hinges and strikes, laminate trimming and just about anything that I think they will work for. Several of those operations, IMHO, could be accomplished easier with the OPR, due to the improved visibility it offers. On top of that, being a pin router, the OPR wood enable me to make easy copies of plaques and other such items.
BTW, I did knot say that you could knot do these operations without the OPR]am[/I] saying that the OPR wood make them easier to do.
matpoh, bring on the other unidentified items!
I simply asked the question - What do you typically use the router for and what projects would you plan on the OPR that can not be done with a standard router table?
I think the answer is nothing except that some tasks are easier on the OPR and in some peoples' minds safer.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
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a1gutterman
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 3653
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:45 am
- Location: "close to" Seattle
-
dusty
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 21481
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
- Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona
a1gutterman wrote:And I think that you have got your answer!:)
Actually, Tim, I did not get an answer. That was my opinion. I happen to believe that there are OPR user's out there that probably do not agree that you can do everything on a table router that can be done with an OPR.
That was the essence of my question. What do you typically use the router for and what projects would you plan on the OPR that can not be done with a standard router table.
Nothing is my answer - does everyone agree?????
If they do, I just might quit lusting over the OPR.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Yes, maybe we need another thread, but since we started out mentioning Rick's opinion of the OPR - how about I add Nick's opinion! Here's a post I retrieved from the archives in December of 2006. It is his answer to a question from Ed (reible): (The underlining is mine)
...it seems they are not really "pushing" the product.
I have to agree, Ed. In my opinion, not only are we not pushing the product, the marketing copy in the catalogue doesn't even begin to tell what this sucker can do. In the vertical position, it does everything the world's-best-and-most-expensive router tables do, only lots better. Easier, safer, more efficient, more accurate. And it does stuff that router tables don't do, pin routing being only one example.
And if you buy the overarm router that attaches to your Shopsmith, you can also rout with it in the horizontal position. It's the JointMaker, back from the dead -- but with a better table and some cool new capabilties! The fact of the matter is that if you compare a router table -- any router table -- to the Overarm Router mounted on the Shopsmith...Well, there is no comparison. It's like comparing an apple to an entire grove of oranges.
I'm not just spouting the company line, guys. Those of you who have taken my classes know that I'm straight up about tools and I don't push stuff you won't use. But in this case, I don't think the company knows what they've got. In fact, I don't think the inventor of the Overarm Router, Norm Bryden (God rest his soul), knew what he had. Come take our Routing & Shaping and our Advanced Routing courses at the Academy. I'll put my router where my mouth is. (How's that for a straight line? Somebody pick up on it, please!)
With all good wishes,
__________________
Nick Engler, Director
Shopsmith National Woodworking Academy
That is his opinion.
...it seems they are not really "pushing" the product.
I have to agree, Ed. In my opinion, not only are we not pushing the product, the marketing copy in the catalogue doesn't even begin to tell what this sucker can do. In the vertical position, it does everything the world's-best-and-most-expensive router tables do, only lots better. Easier, safer, more efficient, more accurate. And it does stuff that router tables don't do, pin routing being only one example.
And if you buy the overarm router that attaches to your Shopsmith, you can also rout with it in the horizontal position. It's the JointMaker, back from the dead -- but with a better table and some cool new capabilties! The fact of the matter is that if you compare a router table -- any router table -- to the Overarm Router mounted on the Shopsmith...Well, there is no comparison. It's like comparing an apple to an entire grove of oranges.
I'm not just spouting the company line, guys. Those of you who have taken my classes know that I'm straight up about tools and I don't push stuff you won't use. But in this case, I don't think the company knows what they've got. In fact, I don't think the inventor of the Overarm Router, Norm Bryden (God rest his soul), knew what he had. Come take our Routing & Shaping and our Advanced Routing courses at the Academy. I'll put my router where my mouth is. (How's that for a straight line? Somebody pick up on it, please!)
With all good wishes,
__________________
Nick Engler, Director
Shopsmith National Woodworking Academy
That is his opinion.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Hey I remember that post!
I also decided to start a new thread about this subject anyway I'm sure those interested will find it.
You know it would be interesting to know just how many people here have the OPR either old or new version and how many are actively using them... and has anyone got rid of the router table they owned and gone with just using the OPR....
Ed
I also decided to start a new thread about this subject anyway I'm sure those interested will find it.
You know it would be interesting to know just how many people here have the OPR either old or new version and how many are actively using them... and has anyone got rid of the router table they owned and gone with just using the OPR....
Ed
{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]