Forest Saw Blades

[shydragon]

I'm not saying I need to have a jointed edge. I'm just saying, with a Forrest Woodworker II blade, I was getting a jointed edge. I bought this blade 14 years ago, but had never used it until just recently when I pulled the SS out of storage.

The new blades from Amana, may not be as true as some of you think. At the TA, Rick checked a brand new one, it was far enough out, that he said he would return it.

My original question about molding/dado arbor and shims was due to the fact that I didn't believe a Forrest blade could be had in 1-1/4". The link that I posted, has the Forrest on sale for 89.00.

Yes, Dusty, I believe your right, 1-1/4" arbor, is somewhat like a stiffner. I just didn't know anything about the 5/8" arbor or molding arbor.

It was just a simple question, not something to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

As Reible said, the best upgrade is a better blade. Nick always said, $100 saw with a $40 dollar blade is not as good as a $40 saw with $100 blade.

I think I will also check out the infinity site. Sounds promising.

[shydragon]

When I said, Forrest for $89.00, I left out that, it was for the 5/8" arbor.

Reible, you're using the infinity with 5/8" arbor, correct?

[poidog]

SS sells a 5/8 saw arbor part #555321 for (500) and #555608 for (505,510,520)

Chet
USCG (ret)

[reible]

Hi Ed,

I started by buying infinity router bits too, then went to the saw blades. Must be nice to have them so close. So far I've been happy with them on all accounts.

I learned woodworking where you jointed, cut and then jointed. When I started to build my own shop (pre-shopsmith days) One of my first additions was a jointer as in "you can't live without it". In those days of steel blades the cuts where very different then the cuts of todays carbide blades, it was either a jointer or a jointer plane to prep the edges. After you had a jointed edge to run against the fence you then had to make a second cut leaving 1/8" or 1/16" or some other amount to be jointed off on the new cut edge. However a planer can end up messing things up areas near a grain change thus sometimes making it a several pass operation to get another good edge... and the effort to get the wood to the right width was never very easy. That is all and good for normal woods but plywood or other glued up pieces you find that jointing with a jointer can be a little less then wonderful. Even before you get to that the saw blades can leave a major mess to clean up... of course we all have ways of dealing with this, right??

Then there were cross cuts, in most cases those are not jointed (please I know you can but lets not have that come into this thread). Several things happen in cross cutting and as woodworkers we have all seen them. Yes, again we can do things to limit the damage and reduce our work fix them.

I have no love of sanding. If I can find anyway to reduce it or a tool to make it less effort and less time consuming I'm all for it. The less time I spend jointing the better I like it. If I can joint an edge then rip 3 or 4 boards out without having to go back and forth to the jointer I like it. If I don't have to tape joints or score them first well, I like it that way. Not having to swap blades all the time, I like it. I like the newer blades and what they can do, and the better they can make it for me the more I like woodworking.

The blades in todays world are much much different they when I first started woodworking In the shop back home you had a couple of rip blades and a couple of cross cut blades (only because when one got dull you could move to another until you had time to set and sharpen them again). By the time I was setting up my own shop they had hollow ground blades, planer blades and a few more selections but still all steel. Today you can get glue-line rip blades, cross-cut blades, laminate blades, multi-material blades... and a whole 31-flavors of different companies making them. Some better, more expensive, some on the very "why did they ever waste the materials to make this blade" end. It took a while before I moved to the carbide, some of that was due to not wanting to try something new... and well the always present cost issures. Once I did try one I never even thought about going back to the steel ones. I think like me some people don't want to go to something different because they are use to what they have. If however you do make this jump to better blades you may not ever want to go back to what you had (yes you will be stuck buy these more costly blades forever)... I personally think you will love how they work, and it may even make you a better woodworker.

When we are talking about the Forrest blade it is in a class called a combo-blade. In this case it works well for ripping and it works well for cross cuts. So for a lot of users you put the blade on and use it for... well everything. It cuts hard woods, it cuts softwoods, laminates and so on. From all accounts it seems to be one of the best at it... and yes it costs money. If you just want to get a step closer then the infinity blade might be a good pick as might the new freud blade.

To quote shopsmith "Good results begin with a good saw blade"... my thought is better results begin with a better saw blade. So if you have a $10 blade on your shopsmith try buying a better quality $25 one. Got a $25 blade, then get a better $50 blade, got a $50 blade get a better $100 blade...

I know some of this can be a money issue, can't help you there but most of these blades can and will last you a lot of years as long as you take care of them so they are an investment.

I'm not going to post more on this as I am only expressing my opinion on this blade issue so take what you read and think and make up your own mind... if you do get one of the better blades feel free to do a report on it in the tool review.

Ed

I like infinitytools and they are located right here in Tampa so I can drop in at any time. I'm a totally firm believer in their router bits, but I have never used one of their saw blades.

But I think my point is if your going to joint the cut and assuming there is no physical defect in the cut that jointing will not remove why is the cut quality so important to pay top dollar for the blade?

Again if you running production where time saved is money made and you can bypass jointing with a glue line cut blade then it would make sense.

But I joint my cuts. First I like to joint exposed surfaces because a perfectly adjusted joint will produce a near perfect edge that becomes invisible in most joints. If the edge is exposed then the jointed edge is better than accomplished with 220 sanding which is what I sand to.
Ed

[reible]

When I said, Forrest for $89.00, I left out that, it was for the 5/8" arbor.

Reible, you're using the infinity with 5/8" arbor, correct?

Correct.

Ed

[dicksterp]

If you want a 1 1/4" blade from Forrest, you have to call them on the phone to order it. They will make it for you.

[charlese]

If you want a 1 1/4" blade from Forrest, you have to call them on the phone to order it. They will make it for you.

Wonder why that phone call would be necessary? Just went to the web site Pat gave us earlier and put a Forrest WW II into a shopping cart. Although I didn't go any farther with the cart, I found I could get one "next day shipping" if I wanted to pay another $65.

[dusty]

I have a Forest Woodworker II thin curf with 1-1/4" arbor. I bought this some time ago when Woodcraft was selling Shopsmiths. I would like to get another one, but I can only find them in 5/8" arbor. Their web site says the thin curf blade should be used with dampner/stiffners.

So, my question, Could I use the molder/dado arbor with the stiffners for the 5/8" Forest blade? I don't believe there is enough room on the standard 5/8" saw arbor.

I see SS has an email sale, and I thought about buying the molder/dado arbor for that purpose and one of the blank saw inserts.

The referenced site has grown/improved quite a bit since I visited last. It owould be easy to miss something.

Pat, you said you wanted a Forrest thin kerk with a 1 1/4" bore. Forrest offers what you want (10407100-S). Notice that no dampener is recommended for this blade but there is a recommendation just three blades down in the table.

http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/c ... er_II.html

Also, notice that Forrest does not offer a stiffener with 1 1/4" bore. Now I know you can get them. I spoke with a Forrest rep at the Woodworking Show here a couple weeks ago. She told me they could do a special bore if I wanted one.

http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/c ... eners.html

[Ed in Tampa]

To quote shopsmith "Good results begin with a good saw blade"... my thought is better results begin with a better saw blade. So if you have a $10 blade on your shopsmith try buying a better quality $25 one. Got a $25 blade, then get a better $50 blade, got a $50 blade get a better $100 blade...

Reible
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not disputing you or the statement above. My question is a $114 blade noticably different than the $99 blade or a $75 blade and etc? Or have we got caught up in the industry hype, where ad agencies are paid untold sums of money to convince us there is?

I get Wood Magazine and a few others and usually once every couple of years they do a "saw blade comparison". I have read many of these and looked at the data, seen their picture testimonies and frankly, mosty high quality blade made today produces a cut that can only be faulted by close examination under high power magnification. Oh this one might produce a tiny chip in melamine or this one if it isn't used with a ZCI might leave wiskers. Frankly I think it boils down real quick to nit picking.

Understand my most expensive blade is a Shopsmith blade, and it has been sharpened by what I consider to be a premier sharpener. I have in the past bought more expensive blades but after a few test cuts I have returned them as not making a significant difference in cuts to warrant the price. One blade actually made a far worst cut. On returning it I didn't have to say a word I just handed the manager two test cut samples one labeled SS blade the other his blade. He took one look opened his register drawer and gave back my money. We of course discussed the issue since he is an avid woodworker. He also has access to nearly any blade made. His opinion like mine get a good blade and don't get caught up in the hype.

Now back to Infinity tools let me say this. I have always felt about router bits as I do about saw blades. However I was working with maple and I was getting tear out/chip out no matter what I did. I bought a $15 router bit, I tried a a router bit in the $99 31 piece set and I tried a $25-$30 bit and I still had my problem. I went to see David the president of Infinity Tools, he listened to my sad story and smiled and told me he had the answer. I figured oh no hold on to the wallet this is going to cost. He produced a bit that would solve my problem "no worry". Oh sure like I hadn't heard that before.
Again holding tightly to my wallet (incidentally my wife accuses me of throwning quarters around like they were man hole covers if that gives you some idea of how I hold to my wallet) I asked how much? Well the bit was expensive $25+ or so but was on sale 1/2 price so I think my final cost was under $15.
I took it home and tried it, WOW!!!!! WOW!!!! no chip out, not chatter, nothing but baby smooth crisp cuts. The chips off the cutter looked like the snow someone was making cutting up high density plastic. They were tiny perfect copies of what comes of a planer. I have since discovered that while bit material does play an important role in producing a perfect cut the biggest thing is blade geometery. Infinity bits have a perfect slant to their bits that many other companies don't. That was the big difference. Plus the knowledge David had to know which bit to sell me.

That all said to say this, I think most any blade will produce the cut we desire if the blade geometery is correct. If your blade isn't cutting correctly rather than jumping up and buying the ad man's pick, take the blade to your resharpener, explain what is going on and let him work his magic. My resharpening service is less than $20 cheap when you think of spending $120

[reible]

I wasn't planning to revisit this but.... I just want to be clear about how I see this. I don't have the ability to own all the different blades in the world but I know that I have been happy with Freud and with Infinity. I have heard from trusted woodworkers that they found the Forrest blades to be top quality blades. I'm talking people I personal know who are not into hype but woodworking. In fact because of this thread I have put a Forrest blade as one of the items I will buy this coming year. Might as well find out for myself.

"Please don't misunderstand, I'm not disputing you or the statement above. My question is a $114 blade noticably different than the $99 blade or a $75 blade and etc? Or have we got caught up in the industry hype, where ad agencies are paid untold sums of money to convince us there is?"

I can not say a $99 blade will be better then a $114 blade. I can say that I personally have found $99 blades better then $50 blades. I can also say that it would be hard for industry hype to have any effect on how a blade really cuts which is what I see. I can also say it has been 8 years now since ended all my subscriptions, I haven't been to a wood show in 20 years so it is hard for me to venture a guess as to what is being hyped now. I know they have been talking about ceramics for a long while and if they have any blades on the market I'm guess they are in the $200/$300 range this is a step to far for me to go. I can however spend $114 for a blade that will most likely out last my woodwork life.

You do have to remember some things live up to their hype, somethings don't. Here are two examples for me, one, now this is back sometime I went to a woodworking show and the new "hype" was softstart routers. I was with a couple of buddies and they felt this was just hype, I felt more open minded about it and stopped to see some demo's. I knew I wanted one but I didn't have the money so it went on my list for the next time I needed/wanted a router. It was quiet a while later that it came time to get another router and I made sure it had that feature and like I expected I loved it. Sure it was hype but for me it was something I liked and still like. And I now have several routers with this feature. The second example was the shopsmith dial set-up gauge. It was hyped here and I got caught up in it and purchased one. About all it did was say that what I have been doing for years has been working and it was fun to playwith doing some testing of things I was interested in knowing about, things I could not do anything about but measure. If someone wanted to borrow mine now I can say I have no idea where I stored it... I haven't seen it in months and I really don't care... for me it was hype and nothing more... a total waste of the $60.


"I get Wood Magazine and a few others and usually once every couple of years they do a "saw blade comparison". I have read many of these and looked at the data, seen their picture testimonies and frankly, mosty high quality blade made today produces a cut that can only be faulted by close examination under high power magnification. Oh this one might produce a tiny chip in melamine or this one if it isn't used with a ZCI might leave wiskers. Frankly I think it boils down real quick to nit picking."

I have seen some of the data from these studies and retractions and redoing things they did wrong and so on. I've also seen them replace a blade that did not do so well with an other "new" blade provided them... however they also have not done so with other manufactures... and oh by the way one has ad's in the Magazine the other does not... hmmmmm. This is another pet peeve of mine... these studies are a joke, no sample size, no way to recreate them, plain bad scientific procedures... I use to judge science fairs and most 8th graders would do a better job then I have seen in these magazines. I've dismissed this as a sourse of information but just for the record what blade to they nit-pick to the top?

"Understand my most expensive blade is a Shopsmith blade, and it has been sharpened by what I consider to be a premier sharpener. I have in the past bought more expensive blades but after a few test cuts I have returned them as not making a significant difference in cuts to warrant the price. One blade actually made a far worst cut. On returning it I didn't have to say a word I just handed the manager two test cut samples one labeled SS blade the other his blade. He took one look opened his register drawer and gave back my money. We of course discussed the issue since he is an avid woodworker. He also has access to nearly any blade made. His opinion like mine get a good blade and don't get caught up in the hype."

Now we have to be careful of what you are saying and what I'm hearing... If I read this right you have a shopsmith blade reground to become a "Ed In Tampa" shopsmith edition. So we are now compairing EIT blades to other blades correct? This also means we have a $60 blade plus a $20 grind or a limited edition EIT blade worth $80. From this can we can enfer that the blade from shopsmith is not as good as the EIT blade? Is it also true that the EIT blade was used for the test cuts against the expensive blade and not a stock shopsmith blade? You really don't need to answer this as it should be clear where this leads.

Have you thought about a mail order business where you buy shopsmith blades take them to your grinder then sell the offical EIT edition shopsmith blade? If not how about disclosing the EIT grind or the place where you have it done (do they do by mail?)? I had local places but they are all gone now and even then most would not do "special" grinds (for legal reasons or so I was told). My favorite place was a hardware store where you would leave your blade one week and pick it up the next, the mystery guy(s) did a great job but when the hardware store went away so did the service.

"That all said to say this, I think most any blade will produce the cut we desire if the blade geometery is correct. If your blade isn't cutting correctly rather than jumping up and buying the ad man's pick, take the blade to your resharpener, explain what is going on and let him work his magic. My resharpening service is less than $20 cheap when you think of spending $120."

So in the end I guess I've never had a problem with buying a $99 blade with all the right stuff rather then a $60 blade with a $20 regrind, so maybe I wasted $19??? or maybe not cause I still like coated blades, ground hubs and sound dampened designs. Will I like the Forrest blade, who knows maybe you will get a review this coming summer.

Ed