Trying to date my 10ER

[jct]

I'm trying to figure out when my 10ER (S/N 86645) was manufactured. It has hollow table support tubes and thick way tubes. I've seen conflicting information about the dates that different features were introduced. A document on the 10ER Yahoo group site says
Sept 1952 hollow table support tubes
Feb 1953 thin way tubes (Mark V style)
(10erfactorymods.txt in this folder: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Sho ... %20Survey/)

A document on Everett Davis's Google Drive says
Feb 1953 saw the introduction of Hollow Table Support Tubes
Later in 1953 the 1/8” Wall Thickness Way Tubes were introduced which replaced the thicker wall and much heavier ¼” Wall Way Tubes used previously.
(https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... XBhMHJJY1E)

Which dates are more accurate?

WayTubeEnds.JPG (91.23 KiB) Viewed 17311 times

TableSupportTube.JPG (65.66 KiB) Viewed 17311 times

[jsburger]

These machines are 60+ years old. Those surveys give an indication of age but are not very accurate since who knows what POs have changed or replaced. The best way is by serial number. Skip has a document over on the 10ER users group that lists serial numbers by year. I can't find my copy right now to attach but that is the best way.

Post you're S/N and someone will chime in with the year.

EDIT:
I found Skip's list and I see the S/N in your signature. According to Skip's list it would be sometime after Sep 1952.

[reible]

Any time you get a used machine you have little to no knowledge as to what you are getting unless you get lucky and they have included paper work pointing to that information.

So the serial number is the best we can do as a guess to age.

That if it hasn't been replaced indicated the headstock vintage. From there it becomes a lot harder due to people upgrading or replacing parts along the way. I have worked on two 10ER's, one that I gave my brother and one I still own. In both cases they were not complete or had parts that I decided to replace. Using mostly ebay I got parts either as individual parts or as a collection of parts that contained what I wanted. Once applied to my already possibly modified machines they went farther away from original. So if they ever sold and someone like you were trying to date them then what year do you think they might find........ like the Johnny Cash Cadillac song, its a _____.

Given the serial number you at best have an age of 1952 and from there you have all sorts of possibilities.

Ed

[jct]

Thanks John and Ed. The only dated document that came with my machine is a Magna catalog dated Feb 52. It doesn't look like anyone has upgraded or repaired this 10ER. All of the parts are consistent with a date of late 1952 to early 1953. Someday I'll check with the lady who inherited it from the original owner to see if she can give me any more history on it.

It seems difficult to date these machines by serial number, since so few serial numbers have known dates, and because Magna had Eastern and Western factories. Magna's Eastern and Western factories were probably each producing dozens of machines a day. It would have been impractical for them to be in constant contact to coordinate serial number assignments, especially since they were in time zones that differed by three hours. I'd guess that the factories were assigned different blocks of serial numbers. It's possible that a lower serial number was manufactured at one factory at a later date than a higher serial number at the other factory.

Only two serial numbers > 50000 in Skip's list have dates.
R61705 - Dec 52
72628 - Sep 52
The fact that one has an R prefix while the other one doesn't might indicate that they were made in different factories. Or not. My serial number is about 25000 higher than the one from Dec 52, and about 14000 higher than the one from Sep 52. That suggests to me that mine was probably made in 1953.

The fact that there were two factories might also make it hard to date a machine by which versions of parts it has. I think that factories would have used old parts until they ran out before switching to new ones. One factory might have been making machines with thick way tubes for months after the other had switched to thin way tubes.

I guess I'll never know exactly when my machine was made, but I think that it was probably made in the California factory because it was originally purchased in California.

[chapmanruss]

The only thing you can be pretty sure of is the age of the headstock with the serial Number/Logo Plate attached. Even that is not 100% sure as the plates can be switched but not common. As said before, replacing parts may not always be the same as the original part for your Model 10. Below is a list of how many different versions some of the parts have had during the production of the Model 10E and 10ER. Changes occurred at different times with different parts. Some parts changed as a result of the part they are attached to being changed. This is not a complete list of parts that had changes.

Base Plate 2 (no changes in arm or pins)
Headrest 3 (aluminum or cast iron)
Tubular Way 2 (1/4” & 1/8” thick wall tubes)
Headstock 7 (plus 1 preproduction version)
Gauge Collar 3
Spring Housing 4
Quill Assembly 2
Belt Guard 2 (aluminum, magnesium, cast iron)
Table 2
Carriage 3
Trunnion 2
Table Rods 2 (solid and tube)
Saw Guard 3
Tailstock 4 (2 for wood & 2 for metal extension tables)
Extension Bracket 4 (1 for wood, 3 for metal)
Tool Rest 2 (early 10E with a threaded shaft)
Tool Rest Arm 2
Fence Assembly 4 (plus rear clamp for original)
Extension Table 2 (1 wood, 1 metal)

Some parts are compatible whether you have one of the first 10E's or one of the last 10ER's. What is important to know is can you change an individual part or do you need to change a whole assembly.

You see the problem dating the machines using the serial numbers as there were Eastern and Western plants making them. The prefix in the serial number is R for the Western plant and E or ER for the Eastern plant as the data I and others have gathered shows. Later the prefix to the serial numbers was discontinued. The picture below show another problem with the serial numbers.

10ER ER41009 So Cal.jpg (84.3 KiB) Viewed 17267 times

10ER R41009 Milwaukie OR.jpg (45.21 KiB) Viewed 17267 times

It's the same serial number only one starts with ER and the other R.

[algale]

Try candy and flowers.

[Gene Howe]

Try candy and flowers.

But, look out for dad!

[amboyna]

The R and ER serial numbers intrigue me. I know there are several ideas as to what they stand for. And figuring out when they were made is mostly a guess.
In a manual I'm scanning I found serial numbers for the two letters in a service manual carried by the dealer. At the time changes were made to the wedges and lock handles they had made more of the R Shopsmiths than the ER Shopsmiths?
I'm probably confusing things even more.

[jsburger]

The R and ER serial numbers intrigue me. I know there are several ideas as to what they stand for. And figuring out when they were made is mostly a guess.
In a manual I'm scanning I found serial numbers for the two letters in a service manual carried by the dealer. At the time changes were made to the wedges and lock handles they had made more of the R Shopsmiths than the ER Shopsmiths?
I'm probably confusing things even more.

I think this proves that the East and West serial numbers (as we assume) were different. However the part numbers listed in your second picture do not appear in the third picture. Plus when did Magna in the 10ER era use 6 digit (like that) part numbers. Russ?

Interesting but maybe not since we don't have all the Magna internal information at the time.

[amboyna]

What was crazy was I could not find part number 107700 or 107880 on either page of the parts list. Here is the second page. The inside of this 4 page brochure is exploded parts drawings.