China again, sorry gang

[dusty]

Dave;

Except for your position on unions, I think I agree with you. Since my working backgound has been in military service and employed by companies serving government contracts, I have no personal union experience.

However, I grew up in a railroad family (three generations before me). Some of my opinions are biased by that experience.

More recent, I have been watching the automotive bailout with much more diligence than I would have in the past. I have seen some wage comparisons (union versus non-union US automotive) that tend to make me disagree.

Issues like guaranteed wages during periods of forced layoff do not seem logical to me at all. These are union driven benefits that serve only to drive up costs.

With regard to CEO compensation - unbelieveable. By my way of thinking, CEO's for companies that are threatening bankruptcy should have been laid off (without compensation) long ago. A competent and honest CEO might have been able to lead that company into something other than bankruptcy. Check out their financial status and then tell me that unions have no blame to bare.

Side Point: Again, this is not a China issue. This is pure Made in the USA.

[curiousgeorge]

judaspre1982:

I agree with most of the statements in this thread,but I do not agree that unions are to blame in any way with the car companies or any other co. economic woes. I have worked in the mechanical trades for over 25 years ( not as a union worker) and was paid a fraction of what union workers made doing the same job.

Dave, I respectfully disagree with you on this. By not having been a union member, you can't really know what they are like. I spent my whole (32+ yrs.) working life as a union member and they (the union) did do some good, but I believe they have outlived their usefulness. All the modern union does is save the jobs of the slackers thus lowering the quality and standards of output and insure that their own fleece lined pockets are always full without ever considering the needs of the company. They seem to be trying to kill the goose that is laying their golden eggs. This is just my own experience and opinion. YMMV

[judaspre1982]

=======================

[dusty]

Dusty, I too beleive concessions must be made by all in these times to survive. My support of unions comes from the fact that my father worked for GM for 30 yrs and passed away in 1982 six months after retirement. He never received the wages that the UAW guys get nowadays but if it had not been for the union my mother would not have been able to make it on her own. I was 18 and still living at home. Today she is 79 years old and depends on the meger pension she gets from GM to help pay for med costs. She lives with me and my wife and we all do the best we can. On a side note on Government spending our money. Do you know that when any mechanical contractors do work for any Gov agency if the bid for the contract exceeds a certain amount, all contractors and workers are paid the prevailing UNION wage for their trade.------Dave

I believe in reasonable retirement plans, medical benefits (especially in retirement) and spousal support. Anyone who works long enough to retire has earned the right to retire.

I don't believe in guaranteed wellfare for those who are not working because of layoff. Short term unemployment, yes. Long term layoff with pay - no way.

Forcing contractors to pay nonunion contractors union scale is just another way the union has negotiated for the sole benefit of the union. This way there is no benefit seen for hiring nonunion therefore the union company has a better chance in a bidding war.

[judaspre1982]

=========================

[rkh2]

I have been reading these posts about unions and was going to try to not jump into the discussion, but as they go on I felt that at least I had to tell my side of the story. I retired in 2006 from GM after working with the company for 35 ½ years. I also was a member of the UAW and still am. First of all, in regards to the wage that UAW members get compared to non-union autoworkers what you hear on the media about $70 plus an hour is not fact. The fact is, when I retired in 2006 as a journeyman electrician, I was earning $31.00 per hour and the production workers were getting around $27.00 per hour. These rates are about 2.00 per hour higher now since the 2007 UAW agreement. The additional hourly costs you hear about are what the vacations, holiday, healthcare & retirement costs which are benefits that have been tabulated to supposedly bring the hour cost to the $70 per hour amount. The non-union plants also have these costs added to their rates; however they don’t have any retirement programs, so they don’t incur that expense. Under the 2007 agreement, new hires coming into GM start out at around $12-14 per hours with no healthcare for the first 90 days, then a reduced version of healthcare compared to what the present work force get. Also new hires no longer get any pension. They need to depend on putting money into either a 401K or other savings programs for their future. I have seen both the good & bad of union. There were times in the first part of my career where there were work rules that were not productive and didn’t help the company make money. There were folks that should have been fired for being slackers and were protected by the union. During the last 10 years of my employment the union made many changes to address some of these stories you hear about and especially since the last agreement in 2007. The issue of getting paid for not working is not productive and I agree that it should change. I believe that the jobs bank you read about is going to be a thing of the past, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see the 80% of pay plus unemployment for not working during temporary layoffs also gets greatly reduced. The UAW understands that it will not benefit them if they refuse to change and force GM to go out of business. I am thankful for the pension I now get for all those years I put in and also my healthcare I get, which I pay a small monthly fee and huge copays. By the way, once I turn 66, then my healthcare from GM goes away and Medicare is my healthcare. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I felt I had to share mine.

[judaspre1982]

====================

[cincinnati]

I had a friend who was a manager at an auto plant. He had two guys that made $40K a year painting yellow poles. They did not paint the blue poles or the yellow lines. Just yellow poles. He tried to change that and one night after work was met in the parking lot with weapons. He walked out the next day. Said it was not worth it.

A little boy (around 6 or 7) had a school trip to the local auto plant. We asked him all about what he saw. First thing out of his mouth was "guys sleeping on top of boxes" Got to love the kids. That plant is now selling off all the equipment and is shutting down.

[stevespix]

The $70+ per hour is the cost to produce the car with all production costs (ie wages, benefits, engineering etc.) so you can't compare hourly wages. But you can compare Toyota USA at $40@hr production rate with GM of $70+ which car would you buy? I personally have only bought American iron but value wise Toyota makes more sense.

Some people here just don't get it and fall into the same media hyped trap of blaming the CEO's for the problems (granted some should be hung) the idea of America is to prosper, the whole idea is to make money. If you don't like your job start a company of your own instead of bitch about someone making too much money. That's what makes America unique we have the freedom to go out and do what we want (until government intervention and taxes).

[fixit]

OK guys and gals,

Up to now I have managed to stay out of this discussion but can no longer sit and not contribute (at least that's what I hope this will be).

What we are up against is a long-term (and unfortunately, an apparently winning) conspiracy to turn this country into a socialist state where EVERYTHING is controlled and dictated by the government. Then those in government will be omnipotent and the “underclass” to which we will all belong will work for them and NOT for our own self interest. History will mark this recent election as the beginning of the end of the America we love and the start of a long slide into the abyss of socialism where people look to the government for solutions to all their problems. At some point this trend will collapse under its own weight and I am just glad my wife and I will not live long enough to have to mourn the passing of the era of US exceptionalism.

An interesting e-mail has been going around for about 7 years which discusses the Scottish Historian, Lord Woodhouselee Alexander Frasier Tytler's, research into the phases of a democracy. His research led him to conclude the following:
'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a
permanent form of government.' A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'

'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who
promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every
democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always
followed by a dictatorship.'

'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning
of history, has been about 200 years'

'During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the
following sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage'
It is suggested that we are in the 6th phase of the Democracy, in the Apathy phase... and quickly moving into dependence.

Don't believe it?

Look at the Katrina refugees, unable to help themselves... some died due to lack of water, food, shelter... all while they had the means to band together and help themselves.

Look at Hillary Care. This is a further plan to ensure dependence on the government for healthcare, rather than personal responsibility in ensuring self and family health while demanding a fair market price.

And look at Social Security. Originally planned as a protection against starvation, it has become a government controlled retirement plan, mandating savings, and leaving no room for personal savings. The perfect situation where one becomes dependent on the government structure and handouts.

I was born in phase 3 and have watched us go through 4, 5 and 6. I am sorry to say we are (in my opinion) entering the final stages of phase 6 and are part way into phase 7.

Anyone should be able to see that even the current financial meltdown in our country has its roots in GOVERNMENT. Government forced lenders to begin making foolish loans in the Carter administration and over the years government has slowly FORCED increased numbers of unwarranted loans to home buyers who had no way in hell of paying the mortgages. Well, it has finally come home to roost. And who pays the price? NOT the government officials who caused it but the common hard working Americans who only wanted to get ahead in life by their hard work. People like Barney Frank (and others) should be in jail for what they have done. But they will get off scott free.

I simply cannot understand why so many people continue to vote for the liberals, democrats, left wingers; whatever you want to call them. They have voted for them over and over because these people have promised to solve their problems. Have they? NO. One definition of insanity is “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”. Well, I guess that’s why they keep voting the way they do – they are simply insane.

And one of the reasons for this insanity is that we, as a society, have taught the people that THEY are not responsible for ANYTHING. It's always someone else's fault. Unless people return to being responsible for their own actions and accept the consequences of those actions our country is in more serious trouble than any of us can imagine at the moment.

Off soap box for now. I have much more but this is too long already. Little did I know at the time, the oath I took when I entered the military would make me continue to support and defend the Constitution of the United States long after my military retirement.

I apologize for the lengthy post.