Noisey Power Pro Headstock

[edma194]

Anyone considering changing parameters in their PowerPro should also consider this post by Jim (McCann, I presume) in the same thread: https://www.shopsmith.com/ss_forum/view ... 84#p116984 Summary - He does not endorse the practice.

- David

That's why I want to see some documentation. I don't want to even make the suggested changes without knowing more about this controller. And I want to be prepared for a possible uncertain future for these motors, I've been in the tech business too long not to think all things electronic become obsolete sooner than you think.

[wa2crk]

I think that in the first post in this thread the poster stated that he was learning to turn. I did watch his videos and noted the noise and vibration he described. The Power Pro headstock changes speed very abruptly and that aspect causes the backlash in the drive train to become more evident. When turning a piece of wood the grain direction changes every 90 degrees. this changes the load on the chisel and may cause the speed to drop momentarily and when the speed regulator adjusts the speed back to where it is set the backlash in the drive train slaps back and forth producing the noise. Just one person's opinion here.
Bill V

[hfmann]

David - thanks for the link -

https://www.shopsmith.com/mediawiki/ind ... _Headstock

Ah –I’m guessing this document is a guide for customer service to ask questions and zero on causes / solutions. There’s some There are some items of particular interest to me. The belt tension notes are very helpful. Also, it convinced me to go the extra mile and check the fan setscrew. By sheer luck, it did set my pulley at the snap ring. But the item that really grabbed my attention most was mention of the quill spindle bending when turning and wood catches occur, stalling the machine. YIKES. I’m just starting to do turning and understand catches are a pretty common event, especially for new turners. There are skads of videos and articles about what causes them and how to avoid them. So this spindle fragility concerns me.
Also in that section on “Bearing Going Bad” he mentions vibration when turning. OMG big time. I never mentioned how violent the vibration got for me. I only mentioned the noise. For some time now, I’ve felt I wasn’t getting things truly rounded anymore. This further makes me think the quill is the problem.

RFGuy – I too don’t know what “normal” noise is when turning. However, I do know that it used to be a whole lot less noisey than now. All those threads you linked to are interesting. They sure show what a common problem the motor pulley setscrew is.

Bill V – are you saying after watching my video that the noise/vibration might be okay? The lack of noise/vibration when the item is supported by the live center seems remarkably different even though it’s the same piece of wood with wood grain direction constantly changing. The more I think about this aspect coupled with the notes in David’s link, I’m even more suspicious this is a quill problem?

While waiting for the new quill parts to show up, I’ll work on the fan and getting the idler shaft resituated properly. I’m glad to know that loose belts are better than too tight ones.

Cheers and thanks,

hal

[RFGuy]

Hal,

I am an inexperienced woodturner myself. I have dabbled in it a little over the years, but did my first bowl this past year so I am working on it more now and trying to improve my skills. So, take my comments here with a grain of salt. There are some very experienced woodturners on this forum, so I defer to them if I get any of this wrong. Also, I don't know your experience level with woodturning, so please know I am sharing this info only to try to help, but I may be off base here. If so, I apologize.

In the 30+ years that I have been woodworking, I have been a dominant power tool user instead of hand tools. As a result, I am not very good at sharpening tools, even though I am trying to get better. I own a basic set of good quality gouges, etc. for woodturning, but they have to be kept sharp. I mention this because in one of the videos you posted on this thread, it looked to me like your gouge wasn't sharp enough. I say this because I see some curls, but quite a bit of sawdust on/around the tool rest. Is your gouge sharp enough? Wondering if this sawdust indicates your gouge is NOT sharp? Again I am very hesitant to critique anyone's work especially since I am a novice at woodturning. Just wondering if some of the noise and vibration could be explained from this. For myself, I have thought about getting a set of Easy Wood Tools (https://www.easywoodtools.com/) instead as I work on gaining more experience at woodturning. Supposedly, the carbide cutters make it easier (and safer) for novices like myself starting out in woodturning.

Not trying to take the spotlight away from the topic of this thread, which is the noise & vibration of your PowerPro headstock itself. Just wondering if some of the noise and vibration in the video is normal because the blank isn't fully round yet and because the gouge isn't fully sharp.

[hfmann]

No worries RF Guy. Great point. sharpening is getting to be more of an obsession with me. Sometimes I'm sharpening pretty frequently using a wolverine Oneway system and slow speed grinder. I've noticed what a difference sharp turning tools make. But from time to time, I do let the gouge get much duller than I should. I too use the Easy Wood tools a lot but prefer the gouges. When making these videos I noticed how dull the tool was and just didn't take the time to sharpen (My wife was working with me to get the footage ). I do get the same noise/vibration with sharp chisels or Easy Wood tools.

Thanks for bringing it up.

hal

[hfmann]

Update – Starlog 10/23/20 3:10 pm eastern

While anxiously waiting for the new quill to show up today, I thought I’d provide a summary of yesterday’s phone call with SS tech support person, Sue. She’s been with Shopsmith since 1977 and said she does all the repair work. I explained the problem and told her after replacing the motor pulley and belt, and balancing and tensioning, I was leaning towards the quill as the problem. She said I could have, and still can, send the quill to her to inspect and repair if appropriate. I didn’t ask what the charge for a no repair inspection would be.

Second – Here first question when I told her I replaced the motor pulley – “Did you make sure to place it right up against the snap ring?” Fortunately, although by accident, my answer was yes and told her I LocTited the set screw in place. Her response – “Good.”

Next – she asked if I checked the fan on the opposite end of the motor. Apparently, the setscrew coming loose on that is also a very common problem. Again I was able to answer yes. But the screw was already so tight I couldn’t get it out to apply Loctite. So I left it alone. She said that was fine.

After hearing about my motor pulley replacement, she said the quill was the next area to examine. So when I get the new one, I may send this to her for repair to have on hand.

Next, we talked about alignment, balancing and tensioning of the belts. I asked about clarification of exactly what the straight edge across the motor pulley should line up with. To my great surprise, she said that is not necessary. She never uses that technique. Instead…

(Important I think to know that she does all her headstock work with the headstock off the way tubes, on a jig of some sort.) She said everything will align automatically when the belts are positioned properly. Looking at the pulleys, belts from the side, the top belt should be positioned on the top pulley so that two groves show on the right side of the top pulley. (Mine are.)

Top pulley and belt positioned with two grooves showing

Inked20201022_161015_LI.jpg (39.33 KiB) Viewed 1477 times

The last V on the bottom part of the top belt should fit in the farthest right groove of the left pulley on the idler shaft. In other words, there should be no grooves showing. The bottom belt should cover all ridges on both the idler and motor pulleys. I took it that she lets gravity initially set the tension. (Remember she’s got this positioned horizontally and not in Drill Press configuration.)

Regarding the idler and eccentric: Sue said the eccentric needs to be flush the casting, right at the Philipps head screw and washer. The bearings should be up against the washer held by a hex head screw in the eccentric. When I told her that with the eccentric bolt loose I couldn’t adjust the eccentric until I drastically loosened the tension on the motor pulley belt. Surprisingly she said that I could loosen the eccentric screw a little to help with this. HOWEVER, it is IMPORTANT to tighten that again. When I explained that currently the belt was apparently too loose as my turning (supported with tailstock) was slipping from time to time. She said when all is said and done, the correct tension would allow about 1/8” deflection when squeezing the lower belt.

Another surprise came when she said to adjust the eccentric first, and then the belt tension.

Looking forward and wondering what to do if I couldn’t get this working properly after replacing the quill, and attempting to balance and adjust the belts, I asked if I could make an appointment to drop off my headstock and then pick up the next day. (I’m only 2 ½ hours away from the factory.) Sue said they couldn’t do that. She’s got about a two week backlog. Hopefully I won’t need to resort to this resolution.

As I wait for the quill, I’m watching parts of Jim’s video again, and toying with returning to the belt adjustments again but doing them in the horizontal position.

later.

hal

[Chad]

Hal, that's why they call Sue Powell "Dr. Shopsmith". So, what made you decide to stay with the two bearing quill for your replacement?

[DLB]

So, what made you decide to stay with the two bearing quill for your replacement?

Chad - Are you an advocate for the single bearing quill as a replacement? I'd be very interested in whether anyone has looked into that objectively. The guy on the videos you posted earlier in this thread lost me with the assertion that the roll pin on a two piece spindle prevented removal of the inner bearing. That's pretty much the opposite of what Jacob A says, and which I've confirmed myself. I don't currently doubt that the single bearings are less likely to bend, but I'm skeptical of the rationale. In any case, how does one weigh the anti-bend qualities (if true) of the single bearing against the advantages of the two bearing?

- David

[hfmann]

[quote="Chad" . . . So, what made you decide to stay with the two bearing quill for your replacement?[/quote]

Hi Chad,

Truth be told I got both and haven't decided which to go with first. I ordered new one from SS, and then watched James Hopp's videos again about older single bearing versus newer double bearing. Thinking it was going to take forever to get the one from SS, I ordered from James. The single bearing showed up one day and surprise, the SS showed up the next. Assembled they look identical, but the drive and ring assembly on the older single bearing one doesn't easily slide all the way into the quill housing easily whereas the new one just slips right in. I'm a little concerned about forcing it in. I'll have to call James about that.

Also the customer notes that David linked us too earlier, made me think it's not all that uncommon for the quill spindle to bend when, in turning, a catch occurs severe enough to cause the motor to stall. https://www.shopsmith.com/mediawiki/ind ... _Headstock So I wanted to have a backup.

Trying to get back to this project tomorrow.

hal

[DLB]

Can I ask what James charged for a used single bearing?

If we are voting, I vote you test the two-bearing from SS. I'd like to know if it solves your noise concern.

Not sure I'm understanding the problem installing the single bearing quill. My only single bearing experience is Gilmer, and this is the part that differs. I thought the single-bearing and two-bearing quills were the same where they engage the drive, and should work with the same drive and ring. I know you can't see in there with a PowerPro, is it possible you are trying to put it together with two drive and rings? Normally the drive and ring attaches to the Drive Sleeve Assembly (sometimes called Upper Drive) and the quill spindle just slips into it. It should not come out or go in with the Quill Assembly. If James sent you another one, it ought to be a spare. (I think he does this because they don't last as long with the single bearing quill.)

- David