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Make or Buy?

SteveMaryland

Front porch of my house has traditional tongue & groove (T&G) flooring, and the equally traditional T&G beadboard ceiling. After 95 years, both need replacement. Make or buy the material?

I want to keep the trad look. Estimated I need quantity of 90 8-foot pieces for the ceiling and 100 for the floor.

This is the wrong time to be buying millwork or lumber. Thank you Mr. President.

I looked at what the big boxes and a lumberyard offers and it is not much in the way of trad millwork.

I would like the floorboard material to be pressure treated. The beadboard material can be any decent SPF 1-by.

A Texas supplier sells these trad materials; they (see below) want about $3200 shipped. Ouchie, and a Texas-sized 18-wheeler delivery trailer can't get down my street anyway.

Going the homemade route, I designed sections for the beadboard and the floorboard (see below). Yes they are both hefitier in section than the trad sections but I want them to outlast me.

Big box will sell pressure treated 2X8X8 for my floorboard, and 1X8X8 knotty pine for my beadboard. So raw materials is about half the price of finished millwork from the Texas supplier, and I can get both from the local big box. I have heard that pressure-treated is brutal on cutters (?).

As for tooling, I own a Shopsmith - which makes such homemade millwork possible for me. I would need to buy a rotary bead cutter (see below) but I have a dado set and I think everything else tooling-wise.

But cutting long thin work is generally hazardous and I dread doing it, especially at this scale. And I have never used a bead cutter. How hazardous could it be??

Per your experience, is cutting millwork at this scale really worth the aggravation?

Has anyone here had large material deliveries sent to a depot rather than a residence?

Suggestions as to my design and fab specs for these 2 items are welcome.

YELLAWOOD T&G PORCH FLOORBOARD.JPG

VINTAGE WOODWORKS PRICES FOR PINE BEADBOARD AND YELLAWOOD FLOORBOARD.JPG

WOODLINE #7541 BEAD CUTTER.JPG

garys

Personally, I wouldn't make it myself. Some years ago I remodeled my kitchen. I bought rustic hickory cabinets and as the project progressed, we decided that all the wood in the kitchen should be matching rustic hickory. I made my own door frames and window sills to match, but when I got to finishing up with needing door and window molding, I didn't have the shaper bits to do the job so I searched the internet for someone to do them for me. Shipping costs made that impractical after paying the to do the job, but then I went to a local woodworking shop here and they made up what I needed for a very good price. We wanted rosettes at the door and window corners, so after shopping for them online, I bought a rosette cutter bit and made those myself.

I would check around you for local shops that might be set up to do what you need at a reasonable price. You just might find that you need.

thunderbirdbat

Have you tried a local lumber yard instead of the big box? There may be a local or nearby mill work or lumber mill that they work with that may be able to provide the finished lumber for you. Also check with local historical society as they may have a different source for the lumber as it is a traditional design you are after.

edma194

How thick do the ceiling boards need to be? Do they have any backing or just nailed across joists? You can get good looking beadboard that is maybe only 1/4" thick. I've used that in several places in my house. Depending on the specifics you could nail them directly to joists or if you need more thickness attach them on a layer of plywood or firring strips.

There's also bead board plywood and panels, some more water resistant than others, and some better looking than others. Depending on condition much easier to install.

As for cutting this stuff yourself, it's a big job but doable. I used to take on projects like that. You're talking about passing 100+ 2X8x8's over your Shopsmith at least 4 times each to cut those grooves cleanly. Possibly more passes on each one to get clean cuts. I remember when I would scoff at that little workout. Now I wouldn't go near it. But sometimes if you have a good helper or two those boards go flying by.

DLB

I bet you already know this and have chosen for a reason... I looked at some commercial beadboard product at a local big box (the 'blue' one). I had in mind to use the other side, simple T&G. But, IIRC the profile puts one bead at the T&G joint and one in the center of the board. Contrasts with your profile which has comparable bead spacing but located away from the joint. It is a different look visually, especially if stained. I'm just wondering if what you have chosen matches existing or some other reason? What finish are you planning? (Note, I was not impressed with the millwork on the product.)

Do you have a planer? Having done most of my woodworking without one, I could foresee some challenges getting the T&G fit you want if thickness is inconsistent and you are cutting T&G on a table saw. Depends of course on the extent of inconsistency.

I've read the same thing regarding cutting PT being hard on tooling. I've worked with some, but just did crosscuts and only with a circular saw where the blade is disposable anyway. It was a mess, my PT was pretty wet (not moist, wet). KDAT, per your ad, is reportedly better.

- David

RFGuy

IF you are going to mill pressure treated (PT) for this, then wear a good quality respirator and/or have excellent dust collection. Many woodworkers forget that PT lumber is highly toxic, similar to many exotic hardwoods. The chemicals used to make lumber pressure treated render the sawdust from them to be quite dangerous...

SteveMaryland

David (DLB), yes, the mfgd beadboard I have seen have the bead located right near the edge; this makes no sense to me but if there is a good reason for that I would like to know (maybe the edge bead is supposed to cosmetically make the board-to-board joint disappear).

I think that edge location (for the bead) would weaken the board. My current old beadboard has the bead near the edge, and it has several edge splits there. I expect my joints will line up well enough to make them cosmetically disappear and then only the beads will appear, equally spaced. At least that is my intent. I expect to finish the ceiling with dye + urethane spar varnish.

Also, no I don't have a planer - or a jointer. I get by with nailing a "cleat" on the board which fits the table t-slot and lets me cut a straight edge. I expect the 1X8 beadboard to be S4S which typically is pretty clean. I am hoping the 2X8 floorboard faces will not need to be planed - floor will be sanded after install.

Hobbyman2

JMO ,, If time is a issue go BB, If not then enjoy the time and opportunity to use your craftsmanship and imagination . We remodeled our entry way with Hickory , did the tung and grove thing , bought rough cut lumber from a mill , let it dry for a year and milled it down to size on the SS and the planer , mill cut lumber may not all be exactly the same thickness so plaining may need to be done , that will increase the time involved. I will say that the end product was as good or better than any thing store bought , and a lot cheaper on materials , then again if time is a issue go with the BB , as to the tung and grove that wasn't a issue I used a 1/4 inch bit and the feather boards on the router table .

then there is the sanding .............. the good thing is , it looks the way you want it to . we used a mix of size from 1x6 - 1x8 boards at 10' , there was over 120 boards .

lahola1

This may be too flimsy for your ceiling (1/4" thick) but it's a very good price. I used it for the walls of the sauna I built several years ago.

https://www.menards.com/main/paint/paneling-planking/planking/1-4-x-3-1-2-x-8-beadboard-edge-v-premium-reversible-siding-planking-14-sq-ft-pkg/jk01ms07/p-2844360749006669-c-8178.htm?tid=-7605267936267922108&ipos=7

davebodner

You're in Baltimore. Take a ride down the BW Parkway and check out Smoots in Alexandria. They sell all the traditional woodwork and moulding. For instance, my old paper catalog lists 3 different widths of T&G in yellow pine. In the old days they would run any of their mouldings in an alternate wood as long as you paid the set-up fee; maybe they still do.

They're now part of the BMC lumber group, so maybe things have changed, but they at least used to be wonderful place.

SteveMaryland

Thank you Mr. Bodner for that referral. I have not heard of Smoots, and will try to get down there or at least look them up online.

My experiences with lumberyards is poor. Locally I have dealt with Reisterstown Lumber, National Lumber, and T. W. Perry. Mostly clueless and unknowledgable personnel. Today lumberyards cater to builders and not the woodworker - because builders are most all of their business. I wind up going to the big box anyway. That Texas outfit sounds like they speak to my needs - but they're in Texas. I wish I could find a yard around here, so maybe Smoots is it.

SteveMaryland

Update. I decided to mill the beadboard and buy the floorboard. The floorboard is pressure treated which is a must-have so I'll buy it.

Just finished milling the beadboard. 36 pieces of 1 x 8 x 8ft select turned into 72 pieces of T&G porch ceiling. $32 per board. Ouch. But it was nice material and ran through with minimum bend/bow/twist.

I plan to put rock glass bat insulation on top of this ceiling. The 3/4" board thickness should bear the insulation weight without any bowing.

Next steps, some light sanding, stain and varnish. Shall I varnish each piece seperately before installation?

For the beadboard I used a Woodline #7541 profile cutter. I don't expect to be making any more beadboard; if anyone wants to buy it, PM me.

Hobbyman2

Nice !!

SteveMaryland

Update on this thread. Finally got the new ceiling up. Porch is still a work in progress but I thought I would post ceiling photos and lessons I learned re T&G beadboard ceiling installation.

Old house with old porch ceiling joists. I started this job thinking that shimming the joists "as required" would be sufficient to get a flat mounting surface. Forget that. I finally screwed 2x4 to all the joists and then scribed laser level dots to define "flat" on all of them, then took them all down and bandsawed to the scribe. Then re-screwed them back up. Then I had a good flat mounting surface.

I learned the hard way about the difference between "flat" and "level". All planes are flat but not all planes are level. Water surface is flat AND level. But I could not use a water level on my joists because they are just too far out. Ceiling had to be flat but not necessarily level. A water level will only provide level, but a laser will always define flat, with flat + level optional. Glad I used the laser.

I also thought that by cutting all my tongues and grooves very carefully, then 8-foot long T&G boards would fit nice together at install. Nope. Even with the most precise and consistent cutting, the slightest warpage will screw up T&G fits. From this I learned that the max practical length for a T&G board is 4 feet. Also I did additional planing and scraping on all the tongues and grooves, and also waxed them - and even this did not help much. Any warpage screws up the fit. Shorter boards are a must. Making the T&G dimensions sloppier is not the solution.

I used a spreadsheet to plan my cuts and estimate my material requirements. That worked out very well in the end, but my novice error was to assume that the ceiling joists were all going to be 16" on center - which they were not, as I discovered AFTER I had prepped all the new T&G and THEN tore down the old ceiling. Luckily I had just enough material but when joists are way off of 16", this completely screws up the cut length and waste estimates.

I mounted the boards using the classic hidden-fastener toenail into the tongue, but I used screws not nails. This was a good choice. See pictures. I used "trim head screws". These have a finish-nail profile but they screw in. They have a small star-drive head. I pre-drilled for each of them to avoid split wood. These screws worked great. They gave me the option to back off the screw to get a better fit with the abutting board. Even with all the careful millwork + laser-levelling, board-to-board butt joint matchup was a challenge, and these screws gave me some adjustability.

I pre-varnished all boards before install. Used analine dye to bring out the grain, then 3 coats of Helmsman. Varnished and dried on an indoor rack. 2 coats wet-sanded and the third coat was laid thick and no sanding. Very good result I think.

Could not have done any of this without Shopsmith. Next job is replace porch deck - with more T&G.

rogersk

Looks fantastic! Great job on the color and the finish too.

-Keith

RFGuy

SteveMaryland wrote I also thought that by cutting all my tongues and grooves very carefully, then 8-foot long T&G boards would fit nice together at install. Nope. Even with the most precise and consistent cutting, the slightest warpage will screw up T&G fits. From this I learned that the max practical length for a T&G board is 4 feet. Also I did additional planing and scraping on all the tongues and grooves, and also waxed them - and even this did not help much. Any warpage screws up the fit. Shorter boards are a must. Making the T&G dimensions sloppier is not the solution.

Steve,

First of all, it looks really good and I know that was A LOT of work! Kudos. We don't have porches here in the desert, but we do have covered "patios" on the back of the house which is essentially the same thing. I have a narrow, but long (40') patio that I want to do this to. I really want to run the beadboard lengthwise but I kept thinking this wouldn't be practical to keep a straight sightline down the 40' length (both with installation variation and warpage). I think your post confirms for me that I have to run it on the short dimension. I have done quite a bit of 3/4" solid wood flooring in the past, so I know well some of the challenges you describe here. For shipping purposes most wood flooring comes in a max of 6' lengths. Even with very good quality kiln dried lumber, machined well at a factory, these can still be a bear to line up sometimes with the little bit of warpage you get on-site, especially on those longer 6' boards. Having to deal with this, all overhead, had to be quite a workout and challenge. I am used to nailing T&G with flooring, but now you have me thinking for mine when I do it. Being overhead, screws would probably last the longest, i.e. nailing T&G ceiling might cause movement with temp & humidity down the road. Wondering if you had much splitting with screws on this? Also, what brand & color dye did you use?

MikeG

WOW!!!

Love the finished look. Great job!

SteveMaryland

"Wondering if you had much splitting with screws on this? Also, what brand & color dye did you use?"

The dye was a mix of Transfast and Moser's, analine powder, water soluble. Orange + Golden Oak colors.

I had no wood splits with the screws because I pre-drilled. More up-and-down on the ladder but very worth it.

The screws also completely eliminate damaging the finish by hammer.

RFGuy

SteveMaryland wrote The dye was a mix of Transfast and Moser's, analine powder, water soluble. Orange + Golden Oak colors.

I had no wood splits with the screws because I pre-drilled. More up-and-down on the ladder but very worth it.

The screws also completely eliminate damaging the finish by hammer.

Steve,

Thanks. I appreciate it and you did a very good job on that ceiling.

Well, you wouldn't want to use a hammer to install all of that, right? I would use a nail gun with the appropriate size finish nail in it. Properly adjusted you wouldn't even need to use a punch to finish sinking the nails to depth. Much faster.

SteveMaryland

For overhead work I myself wouldn't use a nailgun. First, because I would need to put that nail right exactly at the root of the tongue every time, and my aim is not that good. Second, I do have an air nailer and for overhead work it would get heavy. Especially dragging an air hose along while up on a ladder. Third, once the nail is in that's it - no adjustment possible. With a predrilled screw I know right where it will go and I can back it off if needed (which I often did during this job, to fine-tune the board fit). I used a little lightweight battery-powered screwgun for the whole job and it did great.

I think if I had had a perfect flat mounting surface maybe nailing would have worked, but the surface I had posed problems, even after laser leveling, and I still had to shim in places. The adjustability of the screws came in very handy for me.

For well-prepared floor work yes I might use an air nailer.