Quill play

jcbrowne · Post by **jcbrowne** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:38 pm

What is a normal play (linear or angular) for the Mark V quill?
My SS made a slight rattling noise so I first checked for loose casings. In order to reduce noise I lined the joint of the belt cover with masking tape to act as a casket. This reduced vibrations and consequently noise from metal surfaces in friction.
When checking the quill I noticed that it had some play. I do know that some play is not only normal but also necessary (specially in the case of sliding parts exposed to dust or saw-dust).
I measured the quill play with a 10" blade. The chord subtended between both extremes of the quill play along the circumference of the blade measured 0.425". This chord corresponds to an angular play of 4.88 degrees.
If normal play is approximately 5 degrees then things are perfect but otherwise, what should it be and when can wear require a change of the quill mechanism?

a1gutterman · Post by **a1gutterman** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:49 pm

Hi jcbrowne,

That is a very good question; one that I hope is answered by someone @ SS! There is at least one other thread on this forum addressing this play that you are referring to. One SS owner even used a shim to reduce the play. I cannot offer any answer, but am looking forward to seeing a SS response.

charlese · Post by **charlese** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:30 am

jcbrowne wrote:What is a normal play (linear or angular) for the Mark V quill?
My SS made a slight rattling noise so I first checked for loose casings....
When checking the quill I noticed that it had some play. I do know that some play is not only normal but also necessary (specially in the case of sliding parts exposed to dust or saw-dust).
I measured the quill play with a 10" blade. The chord subtended between both extremes of the quill play along the circumference of the blade measured 0.425". ... what should it be and when can wear require a change of the quill mechanism?

Like Tim, I say - - Good question! JC.

I too have noticed some play in the saw blade. A movement of .425" seems a little more than I have, But tomorrow I will measure it and report it here. I have thought the play is because of worn splines on the Spindle assembly. (See page 6 of this link.-- part number 62) http://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/prod ... 0_1_14.pdf

Haven't taken it apart to see if there is discernable wear. Just suspect that is the cause. My thought is if the play ever gets intolerable then I'll investigate it further. However, it would be nice to know the normal tolerance. I didn't notice an appreciable play when the Mark V was new. I suppose there was a little.

Maybe someone with a new machine will report the play to us.

As for the noise; I have found that rattling noises on my unit are most always caused by loose jack screws on the table tubes. (mine is a 510)

jcbrowne · Post by **jcbrowne** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:43 pm

To be clear, what I am asking here is illustrated in a pdf of the CAD drawing I made.

As you can see in the drawing, when the drive sleeve assembly is kept immobile (56) the blade (spindle assembly - 62) can be rotated forwards and backwards 4.88 degrees or a 0.425" chord on a radius of 5" (10" blade).

This what I am concerned about.

jcbrowne · Post by **jcbrowne** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:17 pm

Forgot to mention about the noise.
I have found there is nothing like cardboard (the solid kind that comes as backup of note pads).

I resolved most of the vibration noises by inserting cardboard shim washers between the base (1) and base arm (24) around the base arm pin (29).
When the shim washers wear out I simply replace them with new ones.

Also as I mentioned before (I think) I placed masking tape between the headstock housing assembly (67) and the Belt cover (98) and replaced the pan head screws (97) because they were worn out.

Noise level was reduced considerably and I find less sawdust in the motor housing this way.

reible · Post by **reible** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:54 pm

jcbrowne wrote:To be clear, what I am asking here is illustrated in a pdf of the CAD drawing I made.

As you can see in the drawing, when the drive sleeve assembly is kept immobile (56) the blade (spindle assembly - 62) can be rotated forwards and backwards 4.88 degrees or a 0.425" chord on a radius of 5" (10" blade).

This what I am concerned about.

OK now I can see what you are talking about... this is termed hysteresis or lag. I went out to the shop and put on one of my 12" disk sander on then clamped the end of the idler shaft as it comes out the other side of the housing. I adjusted the table height flush with the outside edge of the sanding disk. I made a fine line on the edge of the disk then turned the disk clockwise and made a mark on the table that aligned with the disk mark. I then rotated the disk counter-cloclwise and made another mark. When I measured the distance between the marks I got .155".

So a bit of math, the length from the center of the disk to the edge is 6" (to be honest I didn't measure this) I come up with about 1.4794 deg.

I got this shopsmith in 1976 and upgraded the quill since then... still no lag like you have??

Ed

charlese · Post by **charlese** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:21 pm

jcbrowne wrote:"...As you can see in the drawing, when the drive sleeve assembly is kept immobile (56) the blade (spindle assembly - 62) can be rotated forwards and backwards 4.88 degrees or a 0.425" chord on a radius of 5" (10" blade).

This what I am concerned about.

Yep! This is what I thought you were talking about! Measured my "play" today and it is only 1/8". Obviously, this is a lot less than .425"! (Sorry, I just don't work with the decimal system.)

Like I said, since I haven't taken the spindle assembly apart I am not sure of this diagnosis. That being said, I still think the splines on (spindle assembly - 62) and/or the mating splines on (drive and ring assembly - 57) are worn - thereby allowing the play. The exploded diagram makes it look like part (62) fits through part (57). It is my guess that the long splines on (62) will allow extension of the quill while being driven by (57). I see no other way to make this work. (The control sheave mechanism has one key to keep the sheaves turning - The spindle has (in effect) multiple fixed keys - or splines.)

Guess if I had 4/10ths of an inch play, I would disassemble and inspect the splines.

I had never thought that the BASE/ BASE PIN could cause a rattle. Sounds like you have a fix though! At least for a while, until you get tired of it.

a1gutterman · Post by **a1gutterman** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:28 pm

Like charlese, I measured my play at 1/8".

jcbrowne · Post by **jcbrowne** » Tue May 01, 2007 11:41 am

Thank you for the info and providing the correct word for this effect.

1/8" play sounds more reasonable to me. I will have to check the splines.
What baffles me is the difference with the values you got.

Wear (?) to the extent I found is known to be experienced when using one key but in the case of multiple splines ALL splines must be worn out which would mean a large amount of filings to be lodged in the quill housing (59) resulting ( I would imagine) in noticeable interference with a normal operation of the quill - something that is not apparent in any way.

For curiosity sake, are these postings read by Shopsmith personnel? What would be the official response to my question?
It would be nice to have it before I open up the unit.

charlese · Post by **charlese** » Tue May 01, 2007 4:31 pm

Hey JC: You may be right on your assessment of spline wear. If nearly all of the wear is on the splines in the drive and ring assembly then the torque of your saw would be holding on only by a thread. You could just keep on working until something gives, but .425" of play appears to be an awful lot.

Yes, SS reviews the form from time to time. Nick Engler has given technical advice on the forum to many - but not all. He is a pretty busy guy and can't see all the posts. Hopefully he will catch this one. In the meantime here is a post he made last December on advice in removing a quill. http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthr ... 62#post862 There is also pretty good advice in the Shopsmith manual. Do you have one of those? Also the folks at Shopsmith give technical help over the phone.

Wishing you the best!