Can't help but notice, Ed, looking at the spec sheet, this gizmo doesn't move enough CFM to be effective on the 4"-diameter pipe it's designed to fit. Somebody at Steel City needs to buy some batteries for their calculator.
With all good wishes,
Dust collector 4" inlet assembly
Moderator: admin
Nick Engler
http://www.workshopcompanion.com
http://www.workshopcompanion.com
I guess it all depends on what you want it to do.... I have a lunch box type planer that I'd like to take with me for various jobs. Packing up my dust collector is not very easy but a 6 pound device like this would be great, even it is going to the back yard to work. What is even better is the low current requirements, only 2.6A. This means I can use one 20 A circuit for both the planer and the dust collector.Nick wrote:Can't help but notice, Ed, looking at the spec sheet, this gizmo doesn't move enough CFM to be effective on the 4"-diameter pipe it's designed to fit. Somebody at Steel City needs to buy some batteries for their calculator.
With all good wishes,
In a garage shop you might not want to run pipes all over or want to deal with drops and what do do with them when a car is going to be where you are working... or even several hoses laying here and there makes a mess...But these things are only $100 each so for the price of a shop vac you have one of these or 2 or maybe even 3, and still it only $300.
I have only one tool in my shop that is set up now for 4" connections and that is my performax drum sander. So while the unit maybe under sized for 4" connections it certainly would work fine other wise on my 2-1/4" stuff.
I also have a feeling that the direct connection pictured on the planer or maybe even a drum sander would work because of the extreamly short distances involved, the typical flexible hose on some system has a major effect in loss of flow. Besides where is the dust going to drop out in the set up shown???
Gee maybe we could mount 3 or 4 of these in a box under the shopsmith... Yea make it a Mark 6.1. or would that be 7.1??
Ed
{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]
Got a better:rolleyes: - or at least different idea - Ed. Use that $300, add $200 and buy a DW-735. That has an internal blower that'll blow chips through a 4" hose for quite a distance. When hooked up to the 3300, through the SS flexible hoses, it blows up both the bags tight and removes virtually all chips from the planner.
Only problem is, the 735 weighs 90+ lbs. Works good on a rolling cabinet though.
You can always sell your lunch box on E-Bay.
Only problem is, the 735 weighs 90+ lbs. Works good on a rolling cabinet though.
You can always sell your lunch box on E-Bay.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
[quote="charlese"]Got a better:rolleyes: - or at least different idea - Ed. Use that $300, add $200 and buy a DW-735. That has an internal blower that'll blow chips through a 4" hose for quite a distance. When hooked up to the 3300, through the SS flexible hoses, it blows up both the bags tight and removes virtually all chips from the planner.
Only problem is, the 735 weighs 90+ lbs. Works good on a rolling cabinet though.
You can always sell your lunch box on E-Bay.]
Or I can just spend $100 and have what I want for the purpose I want.
To be honest I'd love to have the DW-735 or even the shopsmith model but mine will have to do... I own it and I paid for it and it still works. It will most likely still be running when I'm not.
The reason I was thinking of the more moble approach is I have a wood crib in the back yard and I have a project I want to do next year which is for the yard and will be built in place. Seems a waste to carry the lumber to the front of the house to access my garage shop then plane it then carry it back to the back yard. It would be much easier to take the planer to the backyard but with all the chips they throw off I'll have a real mess in the grass. I was thinking of a big tarp and a day with no wind but??? For a $100 this might just be the answer.
I guess we should all be thankful I'm out of money for this year. I'm really liking the idea of mounting this below the shopsmith using the clip system I developed (see:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12199425@N02/sets/72157601724517463/
That way I could pop it on and pop it off when I want to use the machine else where. If I had the money I would most likely be building one of these next week.
Ed
Only problem is, the 735 weighs 90+ lbs. Works good on a rolling cabinet though.
You can always sell your lunch box on E-Bay.]
Or I can just spend $100 and have what I want for the purpose I want.
To be honest I'd love to have the DW-735 or even the shopsmith model but mine will have to do... I own it and I paid for it and it still works. It will most likely still be running when I'm not.
The reason I was thinking of the more moble approach is I have a wood crib in the back yard and I have a project I want to do next year which is for the yard and will be built in place. Seems a waste to carry the lumber to the front of the house to access my garage shop then plane it then carry it back to the back yard. It would be much easier to take the planer to the backyard but with all the chips they throw off I'll have a real mess in the grass. I was thinking of a big tarp and a day with no wind but??? For a $100 this might just be the answer.
I guess we should all be thankful I'm out of money for this year. I'm really liking the idea of mounting this below the shopsmith using the clip system I developed (see:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12199425@N02/sets/72157601724517463/
That way I could pop it on and pop it off when I want to use the machine else where. If I had the money I would most likely be building one of these next week.
Ed
{Knight of the Shopsmith} [Hero's don't wear capes, they wear dog tags]
I don’t want to shoot a dead horse. But with all due respect, I feel a need to add to my earlier posting on this topic. I think I may have been misquoted in one instance.
I did not say the SS dust collector could not be hard piped. I stated that it was underpowered for such an arrangement. Perhaps I should have stated that in my opinion it is underpowered for some hard-pipe arrangements. I still believe that. I have both technical and practical experience with solids handling. I spent a career in all areas of polymer manufacturing. In one assignment, I was involved in the design, installation, and operation of solids handling equipment. We air conveyed polymer pellets, polymer crumb, and fine dusting agent. The bulk density of these materials is very close to those of wood shavings, chips, and dust.
The SS DC3300 is rated at 330 CFM. That rating is at the inlet to the collector before it’s connected to anything. In other words, that is its maximum capacity. Once you add any type of connection, the air velocity decreases. Each length of pipe, hose, and fitting (T, wye, elbow, connection to equipment, etc.) adds friction losses. These are equivalent to adding more feet of pipe (equivalent pipe length). As pipe length increases, air velocity decreases as a result of pressure drop. Nick also stated this principle when he discussed the dynamic pressure issue. One can test this himself (or herself). Connect one eight foot hose to the dust collector and test for pick up effectiveness. Then, add another hose (use a hose splicer or connector) to the first and check effectiveness. It’s clear the effectiveness goes down when the second hose is added (same as adding more feet of pipe). I own a DC3300 dust collector and have noticed this many times.
Most air handling experts I’ve researched state that dust collection air velocities need to be between 3000 and 4000 fpm to clear both horizontal runs and vertical runs. These velocities are required to keep the dust particles suspended and thus available to be conveyed. Nick’s 3500 fpm target is a good one. Chip collection and dust collection are different. We can see the chips, shavings, and bulk saw dust. We can’t see the fine dust that can get into our lungs. Air engineers determined that 350-400 CFM at the source works well for chip collection. Air-borne dust is unfortunately not always easy to see and requires a different set of conditions. That is part of the background for the recommendations of 3500 fpm velocity to keep the dust suspended and transportable. Again, as stated above, it’s hard to do that with the SS dust collector at a distance very far from the collector and worse yet as equivalent pipe length is added (fittings, hoses, etc.). A very good article based on independent, un-sponsored research can be found at http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DC4Dummies.CFM.
I don’t want to knock the SS dust collector, as I own one and use it. However, it does have limitations and we need to be aware of them. That was my point all along. Shopsmith’s tool designs, especially the dust chute on the lower saw guard, help facilitate getting the “bulk” material into a collection system. Many planers have on-board fans which work similarly.
As far as noise goes, my 1½ HP dust collector is less noisy than my Mark V in table saw mode. It’s on the same noise level or less than my DC3300 dust collector. Nonetheless, that’s not a big concern since I wear hearing protection routinely. I’ve seen the results of not doing this in others.
My unit with a canister was no more expensive than my DC3300. It is parked in the corner of my shop out of the way. My ductwork runs along a wall at a height of four feet, also out of the way. With several drops and blast gates, it does a great job. From my experience, it does a much better job than my DC3300 did. Others may have different experiences, and that’s okay with me. This forum is about sharing experiences and ideas (and opinions as well).
Though I believe in keeping my working area clean, I always wear: safety glasses, hearing protection, and a dust mask. For me, these are requirements.
I did not say the SS dust collector could not be hard piped. I stated that it was underpowered for such an arrangement. Perhaps I should have stated that in my opinion it is underpowered for some hard-pipe arrangements. I still believe that. I have both technical and practical experience with solids handling. I spent a career in all areas of polymer manufacturing. In one assignment, I was involved in the design, installation, and operation of solids handling equipment. We air conveyed polymer pellets, polymer crumb, and fine dusting agent. The bulk density of these materials is very close to those of wood shavings, chips, and dust.
The SS DC3300 is rated at 330 CFM. That rating is at the inlet to the collector before it’s connected to anything. In other words, that is its maximum capacity. Once you add any type of connection, the air velocity decreases. Each length of pipe, hose, and fitting (T, wye, elbow, connection to equipment, etc.) adds friction losses. These are equivalent to adding more feet of pipe (equivalent pipe length). As pipe length increases, air velocity decreases as a result of pressure drop. Nick also stated this principle when he discussed the dynamic pressure issue. One can test this himself (or herself). Connect one eight foot hose to the dust collector and test for pick up effectiveness. Then, add another hose (use a hose splicer or connector) to the first and check effectiveness. It’s clear the effectiveness goes down when the second hose is added (same as adding more feet of pipe). I own a DC3300 dust collector and have noticed this many times.
Most air handling experts I’ve researched state that dust collection air velocities need to be between 3000 and 4000 fpm to clear both horizontal runs and vertical runs. These velocities are required to keep the dust particles suspended and thus available to be conveyed. Nick’s 3500 fpm target is a good one. Chip collection and dust collection are different. We can see the chips, shavings, and bulk saw dust. We can’t see the fine dust that can get into our lungs. Air engineers determined that 350-400 CFM at the source works well for chip collection. Air-borne dust is unfortunately not always easy to see and requires a different set of conditions. That is part of the background for the recommendations of 3500 fpm velocity to keep the dust suspended and transportable. Again, as stated above, it’s hard to do that with the SS dust collector at a distance very far from the collector and worse yet as equivalent pipe length is added (fittings, hoses, etc.). A very good article based on independent, un-sponsored research can be found at http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DC4Dummies.CFM.
I don’t want to knock the SS dust collector, as I own one and use it. However, it does have limitations and we need to be aware of them. That was my point all along. Shopsmith’s tool designs, especially the dust chute on the lower saw guard, help facilitate getting the “bulk” material into a collection system. Many planers have on-board fans which work similarly.
As far as noise goes, my 1½ HP dust collector is less noisy than my Mark V in table saw mode. It’s on the same noise level or less than my DC3300 dust collector. Nonetheless, that’s not a big concern since I wear hearing protection routinely. I’ve seen the results of not doing this in others.
My unit with a canister was no more expensive than my DC3300. It is parked in the corner of my shop out of the way. My ductwork runs along a wall at a height of four feet, also out of the way. With several drops and blast gates, it does a great job. From my experience, it does a much better job than my DC3300 did. Others may have different experiences, and that’s okay with me. This forum is about sharing experiences and ideas (and opinions as well).
Though I believe in keeping my working area clean, I always wear: safety glasses, hearing protection, and a dust mask. For me, these are requirements.
Tom Woods
-
scottss
- Gold Member
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:46 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest Washington State
Boy this has got me interested once again in dust collection. My question for Tom is do you use an air cleaner? What I mean is one with filters that moves the air. I am currently using a home made air cleaner (double filtered old heater blower converted) and a sears shop vac that is 20 years old. I don't have much room and wall space is a premium. What is the footprint of a shopsmith dust collector verses a 1 1/2 hp dust collector? All the demo's I have seen with the ss dust collector seem to be quieter than most dust collectors am I right? What about the fein turbo 2 vac or festool or porter cable vac? Also it would be nice to see some other shop dust collection layouts. 
-
Ed in Tampa
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 5834
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
- Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida
I think there is one thing being missed here. If I had a dedicated shop I would probably have a piped dust collection system. I would probably also have dedicated machines. However I don't have a dedicated shop. That is why I have a Shopsmith and why the DC3300 is perfect for me.
Frankly I don't see the big deal with taking a hose off one machine and moving it to another. To me it seems easier than opening and closing a blast gates and going to all the expense and effort to plumb a dust collection system.
As far as capabilities. I have never been able to choke my DC3300 even when stuffing boards as fast as I could in my planner set at maxium depth of cut. My planner a Delta 22-580 (dual speed) has a 4 inch dust chute. I cobbled up a reducer out of wood that goes on the dust chute and allows me to connect DC3300 hose to it. I simply never have a problem other than filling up bags really quick.
My DC3300 also sees action in other places than just my shop. I did a bathroom remodel and I had to cut a lot of concrete (slab floor plumbing change). There was my DC3300 sitting in the middle with all it's openings open sucking dust out of the air. I also drag it to the back porch and use it to suck up all the junk that gets blown on there. It cleans my cars, vaccums my furnance filters, and etc. I even used it to suck up all the blown in insulation in my attic when I opened the ceiling to remodel.
I could listen to it all day over the sounds a most shop vacs and if your DC3300 isn't adequate for you, I'm sorry but it is a work horse in my shop and home.
Ed
Frankly I don't see the big deal with taking a hose off one machine and moving it to another. To me it seems easier than opening and closing a blast gates and going to all the expense and effort to plumb a dust collection system.
As far as capabilities. I have never been able to choke my DC3300 even when stuffing boards as fast as I could in my planner set at maxium depth of cut. My planner a Delta 22-580 (dual speed) has a 4 inch dust chute. I cobbled up a reducer out of wood that goes on the dust chute and allows me to connect DC3300 hose to it. I simply never have a problem other than filling up bags really quick.
My DC3300 also sees action in other places than just my shop. I did a bathroom remodel and I had to cut a lot of concrete (slab floor plumbing change). There was my DC3300 sitting in the middle with all it's openings open sucking dust out of the air. I also drag it to the back porch and use it to suck up all the junk that gets blown on there. It cleans my cars, vaccums my furnance filters, and etc. I even used it to suck up all the blown in insulation in my attic when I opened the ceiling to remodel.
I could listen to it all day over the sounds a most shop vacs and if your DC3300 isn't adequate for you, I'm sorry but it is a work horse in my shop and home.
Ed
I am a fanatic about dust control. Ask my wife. We share a large basement. My shop is on one end, and her tole painting shop is on the other. I do all my finishing in her shop. For those reasons as well as health concerns, we need to keep dust under control.
I do have an overhead 3 speed air cleaner with pre-filter. I use it most of the time, and it seems to do quite well especially when I am doing a lot of routing. It's virtually impossible to capture all the waste when routing.
My 1 1/2 HP unit's footprint is 37" X 20". It is 79" tall. It is therefore longer and taller than the DC3300. While on casters, it cannot compete with the DC3300 on mobility. The DC3300 is much easier to move from tool to tool. I believe that is a strength. The manufacturer states a sound rating of 70-80 dB. I don't have a meter to validate this, but again I don't feel it generates any more noise than the DC3300. I wear a great pair of noise reduction devices regardless.
I don't know much about the Fein or PC vacs other than what I've read. They would seem to me to be on the order of a shop vac -- great suction but limited on capacity (my opinion). I do connect a shop vac to all my hand sanders. This works very well, as I've been able to pick up a board just with the suction of the shop vac. I connect my thickness sander to my large unit because it has the capacity for this type of operation.
Hope this helps.
I do have an overhead 3 speed air cleaner with pre-filter. I use it most of the time, and it seems to do quite well especially when I am doing a lot of routing. It's virtually impossible to capture all the waste when routing.
My 1 1/2 HP unit's footprint is 37" X 20". It is 79" tall. It is therefore longer and taller than the DC3300. While on casters, it cannot compete with the DC3300 on mobility. The DC3300 is much easier to move from tool to tool. I believe that is a strength. The manufacturer states a sound rating of 70-80 dB. I don't have a meter to validate this, but again I don't feel it generates any more noise than the DC3300. I wear a great pair of noise reduction devices regardless.
I don't know much about the Fein or PC vacs other than what I've read. They would seem to me to be on the order of a shop vac -- great suction but limited on capacity (my opinion). I do connect a shop vac to all my hand sanders. This works very well, as I've been able to pick up a board just with the suction of the shop vac. I connect my thickness sander to my large unit because it has the capacity for this type of operation.
Hope this helps.
Tom Woods
-
scottss
- Gold Member
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:46 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest Washington State
Thanks Tom for the quick response. I wear ear plugs/headphones all the time. I use my shop vac when using my planer, routing and table saw on ss. I need to get a vac setup for my ss bandsaw and ss jointer. I also use a shopvac for my sanding station. I try to use the air cleaner as much as possible. I also use my other shopvac for scroll sawing sometimes. I try to hookup my blower attatchment to the compressor and blow out the shop daily.