MARK V PowerPro®

[paul heller]

For those contemplating wiring a 230v branch for the power pro, the following is 'dedicated'.

Your house electrical system is Single phase.

You need a two pole breaker for the circuit to the power pro.

If you are only connecting the power pro to this circuit, you need not run the neutral wire, thus 12-2 with ground is adequate. In this case a single receptacle is recommended.

20A two pole breakers are easier to find than 15A two pole.

Do not use wire less than 12 ga on a 20A circuit.

The receptacle may be either a 230v 15A 'tandem' blade or a 230v 20A (not sure the correct description, but one 'blade' vertical, one blade horizontal.

A 'standard' 115v 15A plug/receptacle has 'parallel' blades(vertical).

A standard 230V 15A plug/receptacle has tandem blades(horizontal).

The 115v 20A and 230v 20A plug/receptacle both have one vertical and one horizontal blade, but they are reversed.


IF you want to include the ability to connect 115v appliances to this circuit. you may run a neutral(12-3 with ground) and attach the appropriate 115v receptacles. Realize that any fault on the 115v part will cause the two pole breaker to trip shutting off the 230v as well.

Thanks for explaining that. I never understood the rules for needing a neutral wire vs. not needing one.

Paul

[charlese]

...But I do not know the circuit for a fact and will defer to someone else who does. But I suspect this is simply a DC motor & the differences between 120/240 (whatever) are moot.

Well the PowerPro is not either a DC Nor an AC motor as we have come to know them. It is a magnetic reluctance motor.

Here's a link to the DVR motor that Technatool uses. I believe this is the same motor in the PowerPro. http://www.ipenz.org.nz/ipenz/Forms/pdfs/treNz5.pdf

Other more basic discussions are found by Googling magnetic motors.

No, I don't completely understand this basic technology!

[riot_nrrd]

If you are interested, on Nick Engler's website, there is a detailed discussion on the technology - it includes the paper referenced here, as well as a couple others -

http://www.nickengler.com/Forum/vanilla/comments.php?DiscussionID=72&page=1#Item_50

[JPG]

The 'differences between 115v and 230' are not moot!

The 'motor' never 'sees' the input voltage, but the 'power supply' does.

The control circuitry can only deliver electrical energy that is available from the power supply.

With the higher input voltage, the power supply has a greater margin to work with.

The increase in mechanical output power is not 2x due to many other limiting factors(heat, magnetic saturation, ratings on the electronic components . . . ..


Not to be overlooked, is the power cord(plug) need. As previously discussed, the plug(and receptacle/outlet device) should be different depending upon which voltage.


I remember a day long ago(high school days) when I was working in my Uncles Lumber Yard. The large table saw(Delta IIRC) was powered by 230V. The power cord was terminated with a 115v plug. Obviously the receptacle was also(bad move) a 115v variety.

One day I needed to run an electric drill(115v) and innocently(ignorantly) plugged it into said saw receptacle.

WOW did that drill take off when the trigger switch was pulled! I only had a couple of holes to drill, and I finished the task quite quickly with this 'super drill'.

I realized what was happening, but since things were proceeding so splendidly fast I continued until done.

No, the drill did handle the brief overload and suffered no permanent damage.

I quickly and diligently 'informed' my Uncle of my opinion of anyone who would wire 230v into a 115v outlet(that was what I referred to them as back in those innocent(ignorant) days Tim!) and informed him he needed to change it forthwith!

He 'informed' that only an idiot(ignorant teenager) would have done that!

Several years later when he disbanded the lumber yard(the 100 yr land lease from the railroad that ran through the yard was about to 'expire'), that saw still had the 115v plug on it. I know that since the saw ended up in his garage. I do not know if he ever ran it there.


CODE says(paraphrased) wire a device receptacle that is rated for the power source and load. Keep in mind the requirement is a fire safety 'issue'. The smaller rated devices are designed to prevent plugging a device consuming larger current into them. That is why there are both 15A and 20A rated devices for 115v. Devices requiring larger currents(30A up) are rated 230v.

Most of us are only familiar with the 15A variety of 115v receptacles.

FWIW, There is no reason to restrict attaching a 115v 15A rated receptacle to a 20A branch circuit. Indeed most residential houses that have 20A circuits are wired that way(dedicated circuits)(single purpose[microwave] and bath/kitchen excepted). Reason being - An appliance rated at/below 15A could not overload a 20A circuit,but a 20a appliance could. The different plug prevents plugging the 20A appliance into a 15A circuit.

Pretty much off topic, but those contemplating 230v and (re)wiring to 230v have a 'need'. Those 230v and 20A receptacles are something most folks are not acquainted with.

[gregf]

Pretty much off topic, but those contemplating 230v and (re)wiring to 230v have a 'need'. Those 230v and 20A receptacles are something most folks are not acquainted with.

When in doubt, Don't!
If you have to ask you probably shouldn't.
(I have burnt screwdrivers to prove it)

[JPG]

When in doubt, Don't!

Good advice for the doubters(of their own knowledge/capabilities)!

[forrestb]

JPG,

I would advise anyone running a 240 line anywhere to ALWAYS INCLUDE THE GROUND WIRE to allow the receptacle to be grounded as protection against a short. The 240 two lines are both legs of the power company 3-phase (3 leg) circuit. As such, if either of your two legs short to ground you must have a safe return for that: hence, the ground wire. The conduit through which you run the wires is grounded (or it should be) but that is not allowed by most codes to be the safety return.

PLEASE CHECK YOUR LOCAL ELECTRICAL CODE BEFORE ANY NEW WIRING.

[JPG]

JPG,

I would advise anyone running a 240 line anywhere to ALWAYS INCLUDE THE GROUND WIRE to allow the receptacle to be grounded as protection against a short. The 240 two lines are both legs of the power company 3-phase (3 leg) circuit. As such, if either of your two legs short to ground you must have a safe return for that: hence, the ground wire. The conduit through which you run the wires is grounded (or it should be) but that is not allowed by most codes to be the safety return.

PLEASE CHECK YOUR LOCAL ELECTRICAL CODE BEFORE ANY NEW WIRING.

I SAID NO NEUTRAL wire need be run. I said use 12-2 with GROUND.

A 'Neutral' wire(the WHITE one) is intended to be a 'current carrying conductor'.

A 'Ground' wire(the BARE or GREEN one) is intended to be a return path for any 'fault' current that may be necessary due to a fault within an appliance that causes voltage to be connected to the outer surface of the appliance.

I admit to not mentioning to color the 'identified neutral conductor(the WHITE wire) so as to warn subsequent persons that that conductor is NOT a neutral wire, but a hot one!


Typical(99.99999....%) of home wiring is single phase 3 wire. One conductor is the 'neutral' and is a grounded conductor that remains at 'earth potential. The other two are 115V above 'earth, but 180 degrees out of phase with each other(polarity reversed so to speak) so as to provide 230v(115v + 115v) across the two. 115v circuits are connected to one of the two 'hot' wires and the neutral. 230v circuits are only connected to the the two 'hot' wires. Any circuit containing BOTH 115v and 230v loads also requires the neutral since the 115v loads need it.

Another(different wire) is the grounding conductor that also remains at earth potential. This is the bare or green... wire that attaches to the outer surface of an appliance.

Some local codes require separate busses for the neutral and grounding wires as well as varying requirements regarding the grounding of the busses to the panel..


Although some 'local' codes vary, most are based on the 'National Electric Code' created by a group of fire insurance underwriters.

Nothing I said previously conflicts with the NEC as I understand it.

The transformer the power company uses to step down the higher voltage has has a center tapped secondary to provide the opposing 230v voltage. The center tap is the neutral and is grounded. Unless the high voltage has THREE wires and the transformers are clumped in sets of three, it is not three phase, but single phase.

I try to pick my wording carefully, but due to rampant misuse of terminology, it is quite easy to misconstrue what I be saying.

Above all do NOT confuse the distinction between the neutral and ground that serve as an 'IDENTIFIED NEUTRAL CONDUCTOR(white)' and the 'GROUNDING CONDUCTOR(bare/green...).

Adding to the confusion is the common practice of using xguage-3 wire for 230v appliances(water heater/dryer) and using the third wire(white) as a groundING conductor). Local codes do vary as to whether this is compliant.

x

[robinson46176]

I am so old that I still use the old 110 / 220 terms by habit.
I always used a lot of 220 stuff on the farm. You can run fairly heavy stuff (blowers, grain cleaners and augers etc.) on fairly long extension cords running a lot smaller gauge wires. You often do a lot of temporary setups, sometimes away from home when farming. You also sometimes need to run both voltages at once on a temporary hookup and I have built some pretty strange adapters to do that safely over the years. Of course you never do those kinds of things in a building especially if you want insurance on it and really never if it is where someone sleeps... But, outdoor temporaries are something else. Most of them only ran a day or two at a time. Sometimes just long enough to load one or two semis of grain. A lot of my hook-ups were much like what you might see at a fairgrounds.
I once complained at a job about them wanting me to run a 220V machine with only the two rather tattered hot leads to it. The factory "electrician" said there was no risk at all but I didn't buy it. The floor around it was usually wet from a water cooling line. I finally agreed to run it if a separate ground wire was ran from the unit to a steel water pipe attached to a separate section of the machine that sat about 6 feet away... The "electrician" was pretty offended by my refusal. This in the early 1960's. A lot of their stuff would have gotten them shut down in an instant today.

[backhertz]

I'm sorry. I should of been careful with my language. There is a huge difference between 120/240 VAC. I was referring to Power Pro itself which Jan explained to me is, as I understood, voltage auto-sensing, which to me makes the input voltage moot to the Power Pro itself. If Ohm's Law is still good, when the voltage is doubled, the current is typically halved providing the load remains constant. But then it gets confusing when one looks at reactive properties and loads and other factors. I am a retired radar engineer and this stuff used to be second nature to me. Language like I used could get someone seriously hurt if taken out of context. My bad. That is the reason I defer to others more up to date on things I studied & actually designed in the 70's. But I've forgotten much as I specialized in other areas and I do not provide electrical advice over a group forum as people possess varying skill sets. I also assumed it was a DC motor & now I recall reading about the magnetic reluctance motor somewhere. It was a while ago. My last experiment with motors was several years ago when I found two heavy duty DC motors on Ebay for my 10E/ERs. The motors fit perfectly on the 10ER motor plates and really screamed at 4800 rpm.

In any event, I just upgraded my service to 200 amps with a 100 amp sub-panel for my shop. I have an induction furnace which I might wire up, but wood comes first. I got tired of tripping the breaker in my parent's place 20-some years ago when I used my father's 510 and turned on a Shop Vac. He was one of those who loved to go to the mall & watch the demo in the mid 80's. The bug finally bit him hard & $3-4K later he had most of what he wanted but then added a stand alone planer-ka ching. But I honestly don't think he ever used it, but mother ended up paying the Shopsmith revolving credit card each month for a long, long time. I was in the service then, home on leave when I built him a workbench from recycled wood I was able to clean up with the Shopsmith. I first had to assemble the system or else it would of probably stayed in the shipping boxes. I learned the hard way what happens when the bandsaw is hooked up & the headstock is on high & the power switch is turned on or being the comedian he thinks he is, he purposely turned the headstock on & ran the power up & then turned it off. I continued what I was doing & connected the bandsaw & never double checked the headstock speed setting. I wish I had a pic of the look on my face when the blade shot out & sailed 30 feet across the basement. I always double checked from then on. I like the menu feature of the Power Pro. But when using power tools, one must never assume a thing as that is when terrible surprises can happen.

The bug bit me since I retired and I've had a woodworking shop built onto the rear of my garage. I have gone green with respect to energy efficiency by using closed-cell foam to air seal my home & garage/shop, a 10KW solar PV system and a geothermal HVAC. The shop is not part of the HVAC system as my spousal unit is allergic to dust. I believe the shop will be sheet rocked & trimmed by the time the Power Pro arrives and then I can make wood chips once again when I make new cabinets for our kitchen.