Shopsmith Forums

A short rip fence is one of those subjects I can easily ignore.

charlese wrote:A short rip fence is one of those subjects I can easily ignore.

So you have made up your mind without further input (factual or opinionated) that you don't want a shorter fence.

dusty wrote:I share your concern here and I have my own doubts but do remember that when the work piece reaches the back end of the "short fence" the cutting action has been completed.

The cutting action may have ended but the "steering" is not done...
I'll stick to my longer fence and continue to rip with an iron grip and usually feather-boards.
I'm pretty happy with the guard / splitter / anti-kick-back pawls on my Rigid TS-3650 and normally keep the assembly mounted these days.
Note that I always felt that most table saw guards were the most dangerous parts on the saw on most saws over many years. Usually a flimsy flopping piece of crap stuck on at the last minute at the demand of company lawyers that felt that anything called a guard would reduce lawsuits. You had to spend so much time trying to keep the sloppy thing out of the blade that you could not concentrate on the actual cut.
Shopsmith started making better guards about the time I got my 510.
The answer to kick-back is the same one I always applied to my kids. You stop kick-back by being in charge... If you can't physically stop a kick-back personally then employ any devices needed to stop it. If that is not enough then employ another method of making the cut.

dusty wrote:So you have made up your mind without further input (factual or opinionated) that you don't want a shorter fence.

Yes, My mind is made up! Don't want to be confused with facts:p In my shop, a short fence is not worthy of anything

No short fence! Stay away - Stay away!!

Does that constitute an opinion?

Here's the way I see it.

The purpose of the rip fence is to provide a guide for the workpiece when making a rip(along the grain) cut.

In order to provide that guidance, the workpiece must contact the fence.

This can be provided by either manual force or a finger board or whatever.

The length of the fence beyond the exit end of the blade will not affect this unless the workpiece becomes warped.(stress relieved as it is ripped)

Maintaining contact with the fence in the blade area is only controlled by indirect means(force applied either in front of or behind the blade)(usually in front).

Applying force behind is risky, but a riving knife or splitter can prevent excessive drift away from the fence.

This indirect force applied in front of the blade has a rotary component in addition to the direct force towards the fence when applied manually.(at least I do it that way)

Once the work piece trailing end enters the blade area, the finger board becomes irrelevant(ineffective). What happens now depends upon feed force application.

If you are using a push 'stick' you now are exerting minimal force towards the fence at the end(assumes angle of attack of the 'stick' is slightly towards the fence). This may cause the workpiece that is beyond the blade area to drift away from the fence. I would only use a push 'stick' with thin rips and likely would also apply manual force to the workpiece beyond the blade area(risky!).

For wider cuts I would maintain manual force and continjue to apply that rotational force all the way through the blade area. Once the workpiece clears the blade area, the fence continues to resist that rotational force.

So what if the fence ended at the end of the blade area?

I do not think it will have any effect until the trailing edge enters the blade area. Up until that point essentially all effort is extended to maintain contact with the rip fence in front of the blade.

After the trailing edge enters the blade area only the push method varies anything. Either way(push 'stick' or manual), the workpiece is forced to the fence. As the trailing end exits the blade area, the sudden absence of the fence will cause that force to move the workpiece away from the blade and the pusher's hands will go with it. Now you have a cutoff that stops moving, and a workpiece that is now moving diagonally.

I am not in favor of this scene. Maybe I could get used to it, but I do not see any advantage.

As for 'over there', do they even allow circular saws as we know them at all?



I maintain the best kick back prevention device is between our ears.

I cannot help but wonder if there is a correlation between kick backs and blade guards.

No guards for over a half century. No kick backs for over a half century.

I am not advocating that for anyone else, just stating my experience.

Interesting ideas, but what of repositioning, rather than shortening a fence. I envision where the nearer edge of the fence is extended towards the user while the farther edge a short distance past the last tooth of the blade? It might also then benefit from an in-feed table. Finger boards, or in my case the Gripper push block in addition to finger boards guiding the piece while. if width of cut permits, a finger board pushes down on the piece parallel to the first tooth of the blade and one slightly above the piece just as it goes past the last tooth.

You don't lose any of the long fence surface to press against while guiding the piece, giving stability and a bit of downward force to reduce the force exerted by the piece to twist and fly back. Similar to creating a tunnel on a router table when creating small moldings.

Or is that too much belt and suspenders?

I'm too much of a wuss to get my digits near the blade , and I still wear a face shield when using the table saw. so any way to keep the body from unwanted body modifications is my operational style. And yes, I would have a SawStop in place of my OLD Craftsman aircraft carrier table saw if I could afford it (and had the room).

I'll be interested to see what transpires. Maybe Dusty has a new upgrade for SS to begin selling! A sawed off rip fence with the hook sticking out the far end to clamp to the table! A fence ala Incra that could be slid/repositioned fore or in this case aft would be nice! and a jig using the existing fence would be WAY too easy!!

Be well,
Ben

benush26 wrote: but what of repositioning, rather than shortening a fence. I envision where the nearer edge of the fence is extended towards the user while the farther edge a short distance past the last tooth of the blade?

That idea along with the short fence idea seems to pop up every few years...I think they both are trying to accomplish the same thing...they are both trying to help avoid kickbacks...the idea is to avoid the pinching of the workpiece between the fence and the blade that can cause kickback. I have actually tried both ways and my conclusion is that neither is necessary and both have the significant downside of sacrificing control of the work piece. My conclusions are 1)to make sure the fence is adjusted correctly...what you DO NOT want is for the exit end of the fence to be closer to the blade than the entrance end...what you DO want is the fence and blade to be parallel. And 2) Never rip without a splitter or riving knife..that is the hands down best way to minimize kickback when ripping. With the fence well adjusted and the splitter in place, you can safely use the entire length of the fence to guide the workpiece.

How about a hold down device just behind the center of the blade and between the blade and the fence to keep the board from lifting at the back. I have mentioned here before about seeing "Norm" ripping a board with the camera shooting toward the blade from the back corner of the saw and seeing the board being cut lifting a half of an inch up off of the table. I'm surprised that they didn't see it and edit it out. That much lift is well along the road for a possible kickback.

I'm all for avoiding unnecessary bleeding but I personally don't have removing part of the fence in my plan to accomplish it. (shrug)

I don't have it done yet but I am going to drill and tap about 4 holes in the cast iron table of my Ridgid table saw on the left side of the blade so I can spin down a tail-bolt through a feather board with a long slot in it to hold boards tight to the fence. I already bought the tail-bolts. I generally like a wooden homemade feather board better than the plastic ones that fit in the miter-gauge slot.

A friend of mine had an "old" commercial table saw that had large toothed cast iron rollers that held down and fed a board through the saw. It sat at a tiny angle so it held the board against the fence. The rollers were wide and quite heavy. They not only fed the board but an off-bearer at the back could sit the cut board on top of the rollers and feed it back to the operator.


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edflorence wrote:That idea along with the short fence idea seems to pop up every few years...I think they both are trying to accomplish the same thing...they are both trying to help avoid kickbacks...the idea is to avoid the pinching of the workpiece between the fence and the blade that can cause kickback. I have actually tried both ways and my conclusion is that neither is necessary and both have the significant downside of sacrificing control of the work piece. My conclusions are 1)to make sure the fence is adjusted correctly...what you DO NOT want is for the exit end of the fence to be closer to the blade than the entrance end...what you DO want is the fence and blade to be parallel. And 2) Never rip without a splitter or riving knife..that is the hands down best way to minimize kickback when ripping. With the fence well adjusted and the splitter in place, you can safely use the entire length of the fence to guide the workpiece.

I totally agree a splitter or riving knife minimizes if not totally eliminates the need for any other measures. In fact I think a short fence adds to the risk of the board pivoting on the back of the fence and into the blade.

I want as long as fence as I can get. I would not mind a fence twice the length of the board half in front of the blade and half behind. If everything is aligned and a riving knife in in place there is little to no chance of kick back.

Ed in Tampa wrote:I totally agree a splitter or riving knife minimizes if not totally eliminates the need for any other measures. In fact I think a short fence adds to the risk of the board pivoting on the back of the fence and into the blade.

I want as long as fence as I can get. I would not mind a fence twice the length of the board half in front of the blade and half behind. If everything is aligned and a riving knife in in place there is little to no chance of kick back.

Not sure I would be so adamant saying that. Murphy might get even.

I agree if properly installed/adjusted tis greatly reduced.