10er Rotational Play in Spindle?

[everettdavis]

For those who have now asked the source: The ad In Popular Science I cited was from May 1951, two years before the introduction of the Mark 5 Greenine's.

Everett

Page 234 Ad Shopsmith in May 1951 Popular Science.png (1.36 MiB) Viewed 7389 times

[rpd]

This question puzzled me at first, but I think what he is referring to would properly be called backlash, the clearance between the splines on the back of the spindle and splines on the drive sleeve necessary for them to function properly . It can be minimized by putting grease on the splines, but does not affect use, as any slack is taken up when under power..

[Dansmith]

Everett, thanks for your post. I understand run-out, and I measure it how it shows in the photo (most of the time in horizontal position). But, I am talking about the spindle being able to turn slightly by just turning it with my fingers. For example, it may turn 1/100 (just picked a figure to show that it is minimal) of a revolution. I have attached a drawing below. The arrows around the spindle show the movement.

Nevertheless, one of my ER's has .002" runout and the other has .001 runout.
Do you think that I can bring the runout to spec with new bearings, or could it be a bent spindle? How would one make that determination?

[Dansmith]

This question puzzled me at first, but I think what he is referring to would properly be called backlash, the clearance between the splines on the back of the spindle and splines on the drive sleeve necessary for them to function properly . It can be minimized by putting grease on the splines, but does not affect use, as any slack is taken up when under power..

Thanks. Yes, that is it. I need to get better with my terminology.

I am still interested as well in the runout question I posed above in response to Everett.

Edit: I wish I would have seen your post (I missed page 2) before I posted my drawing. The drawing would have been unnecessary.

[jsburger]

Everett, thanks for your post. I understand run-out, and I measure it how it shows in the photo (most of the time in horizontal position). But, I am talking about the spindle being able to turn slightly by just turning it with my fingers. For example, it may turn 1/100 (just picked a figure to show that it is minimal) of a revolution. I have attached a drawing below. The arrows around the spindle show the movement.

Nevertheless, one of my ER's has .002" runout and the other has .001 runout.
Do you think that I can bring the runout to spec with new bearings, or could it be a bent spindle? How would one make that determination?

I don't think that is excessive for a 60 year old machine even though it is not new spec.

New bearings might help but ONLY if you use the original Fafnir (now part of Timken) bearings. They are available from A&W Bearings in Dallas. That is where Skip buys his bearings and when I called a few years ago to order bearings the lady knew who Skip was. The real deal costs more but you will never have to replace them in your life time. Worth the money IMO. You don't want cheap Chinese junk even if the specs look good.

[Dansmith]

Everett, thanks for your post. I understand run-out, and I measure it how it shows in the photo (most of the time in horizontal position). But, I am talking about the spindle being able to turn slightly by just turning it with my fingers. For example, it may turn 1/100 (just picked a figure to show that it is minimal) of a revolution. I have attached a drawing below. The arrows around the spindle show the movement.

Nevertheless, one of my ER's has .002" runout and the other has .001 runout.
Do you think that I can bring the runout to spec with new bearings, or could it be a bent spindle? How would one make that determination?

I don't think that is excessive for a 60 year old machine even though it is not new spec.

New bearings might help but ONLY if you use the original Fafnir (now part of Timken) bearings. They are available from A&W Bearings in Dallas. That is where Skip buys his bearings and when I called a few years ago to order bearings the lady knew who Skip was. The real deal costs more but you will never have to replace them in your life time. Worth the money IMO. You don't want cheap Chinese junk even if the specs look good.

Thanks, John. I was told when I bought the machine with the .002"runout that the bearings were relatively new. However, I was not told what brand they are. I guess I should replace the bearings and see what happens. I could use the experience, having never done so. Maybe that will bring it back to tolerance. How likely is it that the runout is caused by the bearings vs. a bent spindle?

[JPG]

What pray tell type of woodworking are you contemplating that will be affected by 0.002 runout?

[Dansmith]

What pray tell type of woodworking are you contemplating that will be affected by 0.002 runout?

I'm just being overly meticulous (I guess another word for it is anal ). I don't think I need it for my lathe work.

[everettdavis]

Everett, thanks for your post. I understand run-out, and I measure it how it shows in the photo (most of the time in horizontal position). But, I am talking about the spindle being able to turn slightly by just turning it with my fingers. For example, it may turn 1/100 (just picked a figure to show that it is minimal) of a revolution. I have attached a drawing below. The arrows around the spindle show the movement.

Nevertheless, one of my ER's has .002" runout and the other has .001 runout.
Do you think that I can bring the runout to spec with new bearings, or could it be a bent spindle? How would one make that determination?

That's perhaps not runout, that likely is the gear lash in teeth to spline.

You would have to disassemble the spindle to see if the shaft is still .0002 to see if it is bent.

I measure runout with the quill extended and rotate it by hand on the pulley to verify extended vs retracted. If it is bent, it should show up pretty dramatically in difference extended.

The 10E and ER had precision bearings with closer tolerances than Mark 5 does. Depending on what they put in when they replaced yours, you would see potentially more runout.

What application requires the precision you're seeking?

Everett

[Dansmith]

Everett, thanks for your post. I understand run-out, and I measure it how it shows in the photo (most of the time in horizontal position). But, I am talking about the spindle being able to turn slightly by just turning it with my fingers. For example, it may turn 1/100 (just picked a figure to show that it is minimal) of a revolution. I have attached a drawing below. The arrows around the spindle show the movement.

Nevertheless, one of my ER's has .002" runout and the other has .001 runout.
Do you think that I can bring the runout to spec with new bearings, or could it be a bent spindle? How would one make that determination?

That's perhaps not runout, that likely is the gear lash in teeth to spline.

You would have to disassemble the spindle to see if the shaft is still .0002 to see if it is bent.

I measure runout with the quill extended and rotate it by hand on the pulley to verify extended vs retracted. If it is bent, it should show up pretty dramatically in difference extended.

The 10E and ER had precision bearings with closer tolerances than Mark 5 does. Depending on what they put in when they replaced yours, you would see potentially more runout.

What application requires the precision you're seeking?

Everett

Thanks again, Everett. I will try to measure with your method of extending the quill. Hopefully. I get the same measurement.

This one Er that has the .002" runout measured with the quill retracted is a dedicated lathe. The other with about 001" runout (quill retracted) is a dedicated drill press. I thought that the less runout the better with a drill press. As to the requirement for "precision", I don't think I need it; but, it is simply a desire. I always, probably unreasonably, seek precision in all my tools whether it is needed or not. I drive myself nuts. In other words, if a tool declares a certain tolerance, I want it.