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Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:56 am
by Ed in Tampa
reible wrote:Ed in Tampa,

If I recall are you not that far from Infinity? And have you talked with the guy there on at least on occasion?

Where is this going? Well it just so happens they too sell saw blade stabilizers, item STA-300 and STA-500. If you feel he would give you (us) a straight answer jot that down for your next visit.

Ed

Good Idea David at Infinity is a great guy I'll ask him.

Yea I know what you mean about the dark side with Festool. That is why I keep looking at EZ smart guide system they use your existing saw and their products are a little cheaper. http://www.eurekazone.com/products/index.html

I also know what you mean about the threatened price increase. It will be interesting to see what really happens in the economy, where prices are falling like a rock. Festool might be forced to back away from the increase real quick.

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:25 pm
by charlese
Maybe Festool will be starting another Forum = W.W.W.!:rolleyes:
They can call it "Wealthy Wood Workers'":eek:

Ed-et al.- You can make your own smart miter outfit for less than $5. The Idea and plans are in that "Workbench" magazine article posted a few days ago. It's the article about the Ultimate Home Workshop, with the expandable bench.

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:11 am
by Ed in Tampa
charlese wrote:Maybe Festool will be starting another Forum = W.W.W.!:rolleyes:
They can call it "Wealthy Wood Workers'":eek:

Ed-et al.- You can make your own smart miter outfit for less than $5. The Idea and plans are in that "Workbench" magazine article posted a few days ago. It's the article about the Ultimate Home Workshop, with the expandable bench.
Chuck they have a forum dedicated to Festools http://www.festoolownersgroup.com/
and one for Ezguide
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Yes you can build your own smart miter outfit but having used one and having tried a guide tool system there is as much difference between the two as riding a bike and driving a Corvette. Both get you somewhere but one makes the ride precise, pleasant, fast and enjoyable. But most of all these systems go beyond just sawing or cutting the wood to size. The offer precision in routing, drilling, sanding that simply can be met with a simply homemade guide.

If you were earning a living wood working (especially remodel) and were offered something that provided table saw/cnc machine accuracy, easy portability, versatility, and almost total dust containment I think you would be willing to spend the money.

There are stories of guys building entertainment centers for customers in the customer living room using the festool system. Doing cutting, routing, and sanding/finishing. The sound/dust was so miminal the contractor wasn't afraid to do it without covering the customers furniture. These tools systems are allowing remodelers, builders, and home hobbyist to do things that 5 years ago were considered impossible. Many handicapped hobbyist are enjoying wood working because they can do it sitting down and in safety both physically and enviromentally.

My interest is both the precision and the sound and dust containment. As I get older I find three things that I didn't consider all that hard when I was younger. First noise, my hearing is going fast enough I don't want to rush it using screaming power tools and vaccums. Second dust, I find each and every breath is becomming more and more precious to me, I would rather have it dust free and not ladened with all the crap people are putting into wood and wood products these days. Third while I can still easily toss sheet goods around I'm learning there is very little genius in doing it. I would rather slide the sheet out of the back of my truck onto a cut table and finish cut it into the exact dimensioned wood I need.

Apparently OSHA and the insurance industry is seeing the benefits of guided tool systems. Many professional shops are seeing huge insurance benefits going to the guided saw system. I'm told OSHA loves the safety and dust containment qualities and almost rubber stamp shops that are using it instead of tablesaws, panel saws, and RAS.

Further I think the industry sees it as the future, why else would Dewalt, Makita, Metabo and many others spend so much in RD developing the guided tool system.

Lastly I see it as real complement to the Shopsmith system and way of doing wood working. Both are space savers, both are high quality, both are unique, both are precision and both have strengths where the other may not be as strong.

One thing get pass thinking it is only for sawing. The guided tools system allows using routers in an almost CNC capabilites, the sanders are capable of taking raw granite down to polished counter tops and doing it with no dust escaping.
The manufacture of the Ezguide system is using his own guides to manufacture the aluminum guides and plastic components of his system. They show examples of using the guide tools systems to cut percision cuts in panels of wood, aluminum and plastic that can only be duplicated on CNC machines.

With the guided tools system it is easy to set up precise x y axis and using the depth of the machine to produce the z axis enabling precise controlled cuts.

Lastly the systems offer things like the Multi function table that is completely portable but is easily setup to produce precise perpendicular/parallel guidance to any tool used on the system. The have bridge and overhead setups to support the tool above the work surface to produce precise surface cuts.

Before you write it off as too expensive perhaps a little investigation should be done. And all of this comes with a HEPA dust containment. What is that worth to your lungs?

If you can't tell I'm sold on the idea.

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:02 pm
by foxtrapper
Everything that I was involved in was carbide. There would have been non-carbide blades tested as well, but that wasn't during my time in the test lab.

Don't remember the wobble or runout of the blades at all. About all I can say is it wasn't much, whatever it was. Be it prototype of production blade.

There was some high speed filming involved at various times, but not much.

Probably the most interesting testing we did was trying to figure out why B&D was getting returns on certain supersawcat circular saws, where the blade caught the shoe and the saw would explode. Trying to duplicate that failure was...interesting. We succeeded, but by accident. Turned out to be a weird harmonic issue with the then-new ultra-thin kerf blade. Changed the tooth count and the problem was solved.

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:23 pm
by charlese
Ed in Tampa wrote:Before you write it off as too expensive perhaps a little investigation should be done. And all of this comes with a HEPA dust containment. What is that worth to your lungs?

If you can't tell I'm sold on the idea.
My old lungs are, in fact, diagnosed asthmatic. They've been that way for more than 25 years. This was most assuredly caused by eating too much wildfire wood smoke. However I am not bothered by wood dust! Those large particles do not get into the blood stream.

Probably, the very small particles - the ones you can't see - like odors from allergenic woods would bother a lot, but wood dust that I can see is no problem. All of the wood dust that falls to the floor is not a lung problem! Even the dust that floats around in the air for a while, can be expelled from lungs by coughing.

I'm really not sold on many of OSHAs rules. When in Gov't. service, I knew factually, that more than a few rules are written by people who have never done anything more than read and study from professors who are VERY opinionated - even more then me!

Anyway, I've already written off Festool as being WAY TOO EXPENSIVE!
Also, I firmly believe the health benefits of dust collection of these tools is just a bunch of Hype!

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:09 am
by a1gutterman
charlese wrote:...I'm really not sold on many of OSHAs rules. When in Gov't. service, I knew factually, that more than a few rules are written by people who have never done anything more than read and study from professors who are VERY opinionated - even more then me!...
Amen to that! You should hear what some safety inspectors have told me! The ones that have never actually worked in the trades are unbelievable!

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:36 am
by JPG
a1gutterman wrote:Amen to that! You should hear what some safety inspectors have told me! The ones that have never actually worked in the trades are unbelievable!
Like the G-guy/doll in RAS recall video. Recalling(new guard or trashing) 3.7 MILLION ras for 3 HUNDRED accidents(0.008 percent) over 30-45 years! Wonder how much productivity is lost using the 'new' guard. Wonder how many people will take them up on 100$ for 'return of carriage'(instant junking). With this kind of rationalized 'thinking' cars will be outlawed next.:D

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:40 am
by Ed in Tampa
charlese wrote:My old lungs are, in fact, diagnosed asthmatic. They've been that way for more than 25 years. This was most assuredly caused by eating too much wildfire wood smoke. However I am not bothered by wood dust! Those large particles do not get into the blood stream.

Probably, the very small particles - the ones you can't see - like odors from allergenic woods would bother a lot, but wood dust that I can see is no problem. All of the wood dust that falls to the floor is not a lung problem! Even the dust that floats around in the air for a while, can be expelled from lungs by coughing.

I'm really not sold on many of OSHAs rules. When in Gov't. service, I knew factually, that more than a few rules are written by people who have never done anything more than read and study from professors who are VERY opinionated - even more then me!

Anyway, I've already written off Festool as being WAY TOO EXPENSIVE!
Also, I firmly believe the health benefits of dust collection of these tools is just a bunch of Hype!
Chuck
I agree idiots will show everywhere and many are in the policy making positions. And i agree with Tim about guys in inspector positions that never worked in the profession.

Once I did my own wiring on a family room/shop/garage addition. I installed ground fault breakers. This was in the late 60's early 70's. The electrical inspector made me remove them and replace them with normal breakers before he would pass my wiring. Today ground faults are mandatory. At the time he explained that they were proven to be dangerous and had a cock and bull story he told me about how they were having people seriously injured because of the new fangled ground faults. I argued until I blue in the face but traded out all my ground fault with normal breakers until he signed off. I then reinstalled my ground faults.

However I have developed a real physical adversion to Oak. Nothing serious but I know that after cutting Oak later that evening I'm going to feel lousy. Also I have found the more I work with some woods the more I seem to get sensitive to splinters from that wood. I know Cocobola and Ebony splinters are going to get infected no matter what I do. I don't know it this is physchosymatic or not but I becoming more and more careful with the saw dust.

I have a father in law that has serious bouts of cancer and other respiratory problems proven to things that weren't considered dangerous when they were breathing them many years ago.

One thing to remember most old timer wood workers that breathed in the same wood saw dust we are didn't have commerical drying. Many believe the intense heat used to kiln dry wood is changing the structure of the wood and releasing toxins within the wood that weren't there when wood was air dried over years instead of hours.

My main point about guide tools systems is the ability to take the tool to work instead of trying to drag the work to the tool. Installers and remodelers are reaping big time rewards from this method of work.

We need to keep our minds open to new concepts, some are good and some are aren't, some cost to much and some the price is worth paying. I see these tools just like I see Shopsmiths, some people will swear by them and others will swear at them. :eek:

Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:01 am
by johnmccrossen
I am guessing that the last several posts are part of the "stuff" referred to in the subject of this thread; "blade stiffeners and stuff".
It is all very interesting reading but seems like we may be drifting a bit afar from the original subject. I am not complaining, only raising a personal concern about switching subjects, which probably belongs in the "community forum", not here. Thanks, John McCrossen

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:52 pm
by keakap
JPG40504 wrote:L Wonder how many people will take them up on 100$ for 'return of carriage'(instant junking). With this kind of rationalized 'thinking' cars will be outlawed next.:D


"return of carriage"? People who don't know making rules?

Well today we call the first "Cash for Clunkers", and as for the others, today's version is people in Congress passing laws that were written by outside special interest groups and NEVER EVEN READ by "lawmakers"!!

Oh, yeah, cars being outlawed? Well, Obama's unelected unsupervised unanswerable Car Czar is outlawing certain types of cars in Government Motors (GM & Chrysler).

Good prediction!