Shopsmith Forums

Good questions now if I only had really good answers... I'll give you my take on how this works and perhaps other will add more information.

I like to have the rip fence mounted to the right for most things. This is how I was shown how to do it and it has become habit. I know others who like it to the left and there is nothing wrong with that. Since I am right handed I feel I have more control using my right hand so when I cross cut I like to have the miter gauge in the left slot with my right hand gripping the miter gauge. Again it doesn't really mater but you will need to learn to position your body differently.

There are several ways kick back happen, one of the most common is when the piece of board is trapped between the fence and blade is sent back towards the operator very quickly and with a lot of force. You don't want to be standing where that board shoots out. Other forms can result in projectiles being thrown up towards your head and eyes... so remember safety glasses...

Of course you need to do all you can to makes sure this never happens, machine aliment, fence alignment and using safety equipment including the upper and lower blade guards. If everything is working right you should never have to worry about it but accidents happen so we have the rule that says don't stand directly in line of the cut. However you also need to control the wood so it becomes necessary to sometimes have a hand or arm in that zone for control reasons. There is however a red zone/danger zone where you never put any of your body parts.

The danger zone is where push sticks, push blocks, fence straddler come in to play. Use them rather then you hand or fingers.

I would say all the pictures are showing safe procedures. If you are feeling a little confused I'd say read the chapter a couple of time and pay attention to all that is said. Make sure you understand all of it, like the warning that appears just after the figure 2-36 about finishing the cut...

If you are not getting the answers you want then keep asking. I might not be making it clear to you but perhaps someone else can...

This safety stuff is really really important. Back in chapter 1 under general safety rules it points out that most injuries occur on unguarded power tools.

Ed



[quote="rdonr"]"Never stand directly in front of or in back of the blade]

This section is something I have read several times, but I learned new stuff this time.
1. Page 18, you can remove the insert from the guard to clean it! HAD NO IDEA.
2.Page 26. Make up a spacing fixture when cutting stock less than 1 1/2 in wide , and use a peice of scrap stock to push the stock through the saw.
"Do not use the plastic push sticks from the safety kit". I have used the push stick when ever it would fit easily between the fense and the guard. What am I missing here? I see the reason for the spacer, and for the scrap push if the cut is too narrow for the push stick, but if the push stick will fit comfortably why not use it? It seems to keep fingers way from the blade and if a kick back happens, your hand is above the stock, not in line with it vertically.
3. How many of you use the support table in figure 2-42? I have used the legs, extention tubes and floating tables to build a support table. It can be a bit tedious, but seems to work. Is the table pictured better?
4. In reading the last posts, I have thought about several things about the fense and its use. Like reible I usually set the fense to the right of the blade because I am so right hand dominant that I don't feel comfortable pushing with my left hand. The miter guage is even more that way.
Again, this was a great idea.

dlbristol wrote:...2.Page 26. Make up a spacing fixture when cutting stock less than 1 1/2 in wide , and use a peice of scrap stock to push the stock through the saw.
"Do not use the plastic push sticks from the safety kit". I have used the push stick when ever it would fit easily between the fense and the guard. What am I missing here? I see the reason for the spacer, and for the scrap push if the cut is too narrow for the push stick, but if the push stick will fit comfortably why not use it? It seems to keep fingers way from the blade and if a kick back happens, your hand is above the stock, not in line with it vertically...

I can knot remember a time when I did knot use a spacer, that is, since the first time I jammed a piece of wood between the blade and the fence! As for the push stick, like you, I use one as long as it will fit between the guard and fence. I am knot sure of the reason for knot doing so. Maybe someone else can enlighten us??? I will say that I usually use a shop made push stick; one that holds down the wood at the feed end several inches away from the "heel" of my push stick. I feel that there is more control with my push stick then with the one that comes with the Mark V.

Enlightened I don't know about but I do think I understand what is being said. First they are talking about stock that is thin, less then the width of half the saw guard so even if you space out where the cut is happening you are doing it to be able to use the saw guard. A push stick can not be used because the guard is going to be in the way... thus the use of a second piece of stock to make the cut. Does that make since now? If not ask again maybe I can explain it better or take a picture...

Ed


[quote="a1gutterman"]I can knot remember a time when I did knot use a spacer, that is, since the first time I jammed a piece of wood between the blade and the fence! As for the push stick, like you, I use one as long as it will fit between the guard and fence. I am knot sure of the reason for knot doing so. Maybe someone else can enlighten us??? I will say that I usually use a shop made push stick]

Hi, I'll embed some comments in the quote

dlbristol wrote:This section is something I have read several times, but I learned new stuff this time.
1. Page 18, you can remove the insert from the guard to clean it! HAD NO IDEA.
2.Page 26. Make up a spacing fixture when cutting stock less than 1 1/2 in wide , and use a peice of scrap stock to push the stock through the saw.
"Do not use the plastic push sticks from the safety kit". I have used the push stick when ever it would fit easily between the fense and the guard. What am I missing here? I see the reason for the spacer, and for the scrap push if the cut is too narrow for the push stick, but if the push stick will fit comfortably why not use it? It seems to keep fingers way from the blade and if a kick back happens, your hand is above the stock, not in line with it vertically.

See answer above.

3. How many of you use the support table in figure 2-42? I have used the legs, extention tubes and floating tables to build a support table. It can be a bit tedious, but seems to work. Is the table pictured better?

I have the table and use it as well as the extension table brackets (555997) and sometimes a roller stand or a homemade modified tilting table. For me it is all about options and being able to do things different ways on different projects. Better, that all depends on how you like to work... for me having the extra bits is better but I can't say how it will work out for you.

4. In reading the last posts, I have thought about several things about the fense and its use. Like reible I usually set the fense to the right of the blade because I am so right hand dominant that I don't feel comfortable pushing with my left hand. The miter guage is even more that way.
Again, this was a great idea.

Ed

I am discovering that same tendency. What works one place doesn't work in another. Like when I realized that running stock through the jointer multiple times, requires the out feed roller support to be moved each time. why that surprised I'm not sure!!!

[quote="rdonr"]"Never stand directly in front of or in back of the blade]
Good questions, Don. After studying figures 35 and 36 - I searched my memory to see how rip pieces. I feel like I am safe and have only been proven unsafe three times. The first two times were when I was brand new to the Shopsmith and any table saw. These were both kickbacks - I had a kickback embed in a garage wall) and (got a bruise in the shape of the end of a piece (3/4" X 2") First was ripping a short piece and the second was cross cutting u against the fence without a spacer block. I then read and understood the safety rules.

The third time was years later and got a little bloody. It was caused by my careless, hurried effort of NOT using top guard nor a roller stand. This was a bevel rip (really a trim), removing only a blade's width of wood. Seemed simple, no? What I learned from this fiasco was - NO CUT is so simple that safety features can be ignored.

I was standing on the right side of the fence that was also to the right of the blade. Well out of the line of a kickback. I brought my right hand (that had already passed by the blade) back toward me to use as a hold down. My index finger touched the blade. Incidentally - the low blade height saved my finger. I lost the tip of my index finger, but saved the nail. This was two years ago and finger tip still numb and finger nail curved downward. (No sympathy please!)
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Although I am left handed, I usually have the fence to the right of the blade. Like the guy in the pictures - in these cases I do sometimes reach across the blade with a push stick. Yes, my arm is in line with the blade. Other times, I will stand slightly to the right of the fence, starting the cut with both hands. After the leading edge passes by the blade, into the splitter, I will shift my body weight to the right and push with the left hand.

On narrower rips, I don't use a rip fence extender like in figure 2-48. If there is not room for a fence straddler , I usually place the fence so the cutoff is the part I'm sawing for. (the one I keep)

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I feel that a longer rip, once the leading edge has passed the splitter, it is pretty safe. Nothing to ignore, but pretty safe. I feel the largest chances of kickback when ripping are when ripping shorter stock. I'd much rather rip first then cut to length. When riping shorter pieces, I often stand where the guy in these photos is: 2-50, 2-54 and 2-55. Although I'm not using the jigs in these photos, this is how I get out of line with the saw.

How far in line with the blade does one have to stand to be safe? About 100 feet, if you can duck fast!

Your last question - can we assume we are safe when we are a couple inches away from in line .....? No, Never!

Hi everyone,

I have been playing catch-up on my PTWFE reading, and enjoying this series of threads. I have both a Mk V 510/520 and a mid 50's Greenie. I was lucky in that each unit came to me with an “age appropriate” edition of PTWFE, so I have been looking at both.

During my read through of Chapter 2, I got to thinking about the cross-cutting of “wider boards”. So here are a couple of things for your consideration or comment.

1. The old (1955) edition of PTWFE shows a technique of turning the miter gauge around (using it backwards) when cross-cutting wider boards. It includes the following text and a full page photo:

“The trick of turning the miter gauge around and using it backwards in the slot (photo opposite page) increases the available table length somewhat, because it eliminates the space needed for the miter-gauge head. With this method a board 12” wide can be cut with ease.”

Question: I would never have thought of doing that with my miter gauge. Do any of you ever use this method? Do you think this method has been edited out from the later editions of PTWFE for reasons other than maybe just saving space?


2. Chapter 2 gives us the basic definitions of cross-cutting and ripping. It relates the two cuts mainly to the orientation of the wood grain during the cut. It goes on to discuss making cross-cuts only in terms of using the miter gauge. It limits the use of the fence only as a length gauge (with an appropriate spacer block installed) for making repetitive cuts. I am often working with fairly short lengths (cutoffs) of stock. I think this is true of many of us and I smiled at Ed's comment earlier in this thread about not marking your cutoffs with a gigantic “X”.

Question: Is it ever OK to use your fence (without the miter gauge) when cross-cutting? And, If it is, what “rules of thumb” would apply?

I lend the following hypothetical situation as an example:

I have a piece of 1”x10” pine cutoff about 12” long. It has a good square end. The project I am working on requires this piece to be shortened to 10” long. Do I try to set this cross-cut up with my miter gauge (forward or backwards )? Or, Could I just set my fence to 10” and make the cross-cut that way, leaving the waste material to the outside of the blade? Would you change your answer if the cutoff stock was a grainless piece of MDF with the same dimensions?

Dennis

Hi,

I'm glad to see so many people doing the PTWFE reading and asking a lot of good questions. I'll throw in my comments as I see them and encourage other to comment as well.

perryobear wrote:Hi everyone,

I have been playing catch-up on my PTWFE reading, and enjoying this series of threads. I have both a Mk V 510/520 and a mid 50's Greenie. I was lucky in that each unit came to me with an “age appropriate” edition of PTWFE, so I have been looking at both.

Yes the books are quite different, the one that came with my shopsmith in 1976 shows a lot more handmade helpers then the current book. While I had been woodworking for sometime before I got my shopsmith I used the jigs and fixtures as part of my education into the shopsmith system. I can't say I built all of them but I did make most of them. In fact I still have a lot of the 500 stuff even though I no longer have a 500. I have been thinking about adding a third machine when I get room and having it be a 500 as I have spent countless hours using one and sometimes miss the system.

During my read through of Chapter 2, I got to thinking about the cross-cutting of “wider boards”. So here are a couple of things for your consideration or comment.

1. The old (1955) edition of PTWFE shows a technique of turning the miter gauge around (using it backwards) when cross-cutting wider boards. It includes the following text and a full page photo:

“The trick of turning the miter gauge around and using it backwards in the slot (photo opposite page) increases the available table length somewhat, because it eliminates the space needed for the miter-gauge head. With this method a board 12” wide can be cut with ease.”

Question: I would never have thought of doing that with my miter gauge. Do any of you ever use this method? Do you think this method has been edited out from the later editions of PTWFE for reasons other than maybe just saving space?

I have done that and yes it works but there are better ways. On the older machines they sold a front table extension which I purchased and used, it added 7" to the effective depth of the table. Another item that helps in that respect is a sled. The first of these I make was a piece of plywood with some hardwood runners I cut on the shopsmith and a piece of 2x4... crude but effective and that was very useful.

When I used the miter gauge backwards I would slide the table to the far right and then stand off to the side.... so if you give it try I'd start there.


2. Chapter 2 gives us the basic definitions of cross-cutting and ripping. It relates the two cuts mainly to the orientation of the wood grain during the cut. It goes on to discuss making cross-cuts only in terms of using the miter gauge. It limits the use of the fence only as a length gauge (with an appropriate spacer block installed) for making repetitive cuts. I am often working with fairly short lengths (cutoffs) of stock. I think this is true of many of us and I smiled at Ed's comment earlier in this thread about not marking your cutoffs with a gigantic “X”.

Question: Is it ever OK to use your fence (without the miter gauge) when cross-cutting? And, If it is, what “rules of thumb” would apply?

I lend the following hypothetical situation as an example:

I have a piece of 1”x10” pine cutoff about 12” long. It has a good square end. The project I am working on requires this piece to be shortened to 10” long. Do I try to set this cross-cut up with my miter gauge (forward or backwards )? Or, Could I just set my fence to 10” and make the cross-cut that way, leaving the waste material to the outside of the blade? Would you change your answer if the cutoff stock was a grainless piece of MDF with the same dimensions?

Boy I can see a lot of comments I can make here but I'll try to stay to the point. Cross cutting wood comes to the point of grain. So as to not confuse anyone for this discussion the grain is straight and to cut it cleanly the saw blade needs to cut the wood fibers in a cross cut situation. In the rip direction traveling with the grain you chisel out or chip out the bits of wood. When you have plywood the grains directions change every layer and in other manmade products there is no grain.

So we have two choises to make, that being blade type and set-up of the shopsmith. If we were to pick a comb blade then it only becomes the set-up of the shopsmith. In that case certain cuts lend themselves to being done one way or the other (rip fence... miter gauge). However we have the option of sleds, modified miter gauges and a whole collection of other helpers for the cut-off sized bits and pieces. In other words the whole question becomes a blur. So how is this answered?

I think it becomes a mater of how to safely do the cuts. Keeping in mind that kickback is most common with the rip fence as the wood is trapped between the rip fence and the blade. This would lead me to say that these cut off are maybe best processed using a sled of some sort using a comb blade.

Dennis

So I don't know if I really answered your question or not, but I hope it helped.

Ed

Item 1) Seems like a good way to drop the miter gauge off the back of the table. Cannot be easy to keep board aligned with it since you are pushing the board. I would put this in the 'if there ain't no other way' category.

Item 2) Works for me! I cannot see a good way to crosscut short pieces with the miter gauge. The fence provides a way to cut PARALLEL edges as opposed to predefined angle(typically 90*). Be CAREFUL!!! Kickback and finger nibbling are a risk factor!:eek:

By definition, cross cutting IS cutting aCROSS the grain, and ripping IS cutting with the grain. Think of angular cutting as cross cutting. Any thing NOT with the grain is cutting(to some degree) across the grain. Crooked grain patterns; You are on your own to define them!:D Notch/Burl another subject unto itself.