Saw Kerf with respect to the insert centerline

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JPG
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Post by JPG »

robinson46176 wrote:You need a Mark VII. :D
On the Mark VII you slide the carriage (and table) over to the headstock until the carriage mounted "inter-latch" rod enters the hole in the headstock. With the inter-latch lock button pulled out it will latch the carriage solidly to the headstock. The rod has 2 lock points on it. The first is for the saw slot at the edge of the table. The second is for the center (regular) saw slot. If the blade is not in the center of the slot you adjust the inter-latch rod using 2 nuts at the right side of the carriage until it is aligned. From that point on it will line up each time unless you change to another kind of arbor or something. If you don't want the rod to latch you just push the lock button in. Cool system actually. With it latched in place you can loosen the headstock and carriage locks and slide the 2 together back and forth on the way tubes and they will stay in the same exact relationship to each other. A good example here would be that you could slide them both over to the left to couple a bandsaw to the headstock for a quick cut then slide both away to uncouple it to return to using the tablesaw function without the bandsaw running and it will still be properly aligned.


.
The headstock/carriage spacer does the same thing as long as you push the part 'behind'. It Ain't easily adjusted though.

An enhancement to the 10E and early greenie stop rod. Also referred to as a carriage buster on the greenie!

Dual index - interesting!
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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dusty
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Post by dusty »

robinson46176 wrote:You need a Mark VII. :D
On the Mark VII you slide the carriage (and table) over to the headstock until the carriage mounted "inter-latch" rod enters the hole in the headstock. With the inter-latch lock button pulled out it will latch the carriage solidly to the headstock. The rod has 2 lock points on it. The first is for the saw slot at the edge of the table. The second is for the center (regular) saw slot. If the blade is not in the center of the slot you adjust the inter-latch rod using 2 nuts at the right side of the carriage until it is aligned. From that point on it will line up each time unless you change to another kind of arbor or something. If you don't want the rod to latch you just push the lock button in. Cool system actually. With it latched in place you can loosen the headstock and carriage locks and slide the 2 together back and forth on the way tubes and they will stay in the same exact relationship to each other. A good example here would be that you could slide them both over to the left to couple a bandsaw to the headstock for a quick cut then slide both away to uncouple it to return to using the tablesaw function without the bandsaw running and it will still be properly aligned.


.

This feature would allow for a ZCI to last "forever". As it is with my Mark V now, I chew up ZCIs on a regular basis. I make them from 1/4" hardboard now because of that. They are nicer when made with UHMW but a bit too rich given my throw away rate.
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Post by robinson46176 »

dusty wrote:This feature would allow for a ZCI to last "forever". As it is with my Mark V now, I chew up ZCIs on a regular basis. I make them from 1/4" hardboard because of that.


There are many things I really like about the Mark VII. One of its downsides is that in drill press mode it all sits a little low for me. That doesn't matter much since I have the double drillpress. Still as I brain-storm (well, OK, maybe just drizzle these days) I try to think about things both to fit my use and to work in a case where there is only room for one Shopsmith.
I have too much happening right now but I would love to see what is involved in putting a Mark V, 1 1/8 HP motor assembly in a Mark VII headstock. Barring that I would like to have another working Mark VII headstock to mount along with the Mark VII table system onto a Mark V frame. The frame should be made with 2 pivot ends using removable pivot pins as was discussed a while back giving it 2 way tilt.
The carriage inter-latch rod system requires the mark VII headstock. That "could" be worked around but the factory system works pretty slick.
If I can build up such a unit I think it should be designated as a Mark 6-7/8ths. :D


.
--
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Francis Robinson
I did not equip with Shopsmiths in spite of the setups but because of them.
1 1988 - Mark V 510 (bought new), 4 Poly vee 1 1/8th HP Mark V's, Mark VII, 1 Mark V Mini, 1 Frankensmith, 1 10-ER, 1 Mark V Push-me-Pull-me Drillpress, SS bandsaw, belt sander, jointer, jigsaw, shaper attach, mortising attach, TS-3650 Rigid tablesaw, RAS, 6" long bed jointer, Foley/Belsaw Planer/molder/ripsaw, 1" sander, oscillating spindle/belt sander, Scroll saw, Woodmizer sawmill
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ZCI Sled

Post by dusty »

Every day brings a new dawn. This is true today as welling.

The headstocks are interchangeable but there are differences. This one has the effect of changing the spacing between the carriage and the headstock.

Notice the small tab on the side of one of the headstocks that is non-existent on the other. Right where the "rubber bumper would contact.

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ZCI Sled 003 (Custom).JPG
ZCI Sled 003 (Custom).JPG (50.89 KiB) Viewed 1332 times
ZCI Sled 004 (Custom).JPG
ZCI Sled 004 (Custom).JPG (68.23 KiB) Viewed 1332 times
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algale
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Post by algale »

[quote="dusty"]...The headstocks are interchangeable but there are differences. This one has the effect of changing the spacing between the carriage and the headstock.

Notice the small tab on the side of one of the headstocks .../QUOTE]

And the result is a centered kerf, a different offset that the 3/32nds you previously noticed, or no difference?
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Post by dusty »

algale wrote:
dusty wrote:...The headstocks are interchangeable but there are differences. This one has the effect of changing the spacing between the carriage and the headstock.

Notice the small tab on the side of one of the headstocks .../QUOTE]

And the result is a centered kerf, a different offset that the 3/32nds you previously noticed, or no difference?

Actually, No improvement. The protrusion is on the machine that needs to be further offset in order to center the kerf.

What this exercise is reteaching me (still again) is that all of the variables (known and unknown) accumulate into what is known as "reality".

I am going to purchase a new "carriage stop ring" or two. The second Mark V does not have one at all and I am constantly slamming the carriage against the headstock.
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Post by JPG »

Notice the angled profile of the headstock and carriage on both of Dusty's machines. That nub would help those non-parallel surfaces mate consistently.

Make stop rings from 2" pvc pipe(cut out about 1/4 of the ring to allow slipping them on/off the way tube) and make a pair(one for both tubes).

You could fine tune the length to center the kerf.

The firmer plastic and double stops should be much more accurate than the rubber sleeve.

The M5's stop rings were hard plastic.
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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Post by dusty »

JPG40504 wrote:Notice the angled profile of the headstock and carriage on both of Dusty's machines. That nub would help those non-parallel surfaces mate consistently.

Make stop rings from 2" pvc pipe(cut out about 1/4 of the ring to allow slipping them on/off the way tube) and make a pair(one for both tubes).

You could fine tune the length to center the kerf.

The firmer plastic and double stops should be much more accurate than the rubber sleeve.

The M5's stop rings were hard plastic.
I have long labored under the assumption that the rubber ring was rubber so as to function as a soft bumper - a shock absorber.
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algale
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Post by algale »

JPG40504 wrote:Notice the angled profile of the headstock and carriage on both of Dusty's machines. That nub would help those non-parallel surfaces mate consistently.
I thought the two surfaces (headstock and carriage were not intended to meet, hence the permanent rubber bumper between the carriage and the headstock which is quite a bit longer than the nub.

Meanwhile, I was sawing with my 520 this morning and, now that Dusty has pointed this "issue" out (thanks, Dusty ;) ), I noticed that I have the same "issue" :eek: --although I was too busy making sawdust to bother to measure how much off center the blade is.

Over lunch, however, it did occur to me that it could well be that the main table alignment project I recently went through, in which I had the trunnions entirely off the table and re-drilled the rear trunnions for 1/2 inch clearance holes, could account for the table (and hence blade slot) now being a couple of 32nds of an inch closer to the headstock than before when the headstock, bumper and carriage are all in contact since the 1/2 inch clearance holes would allow the table so slide toward the headstock when performing alignment. When aligning my saw I was concerned with squareness of the blade to the table and I was not paying attention to whether the blade was in the dead center of the inserts.

In the end, as long as the blade isn't in contact with the insert, I don't think it makes a difference to anything whether the blade is dead center or not. On the other hand, I do think it would be desirable to have the blade in the same exact position relative to the insert whenever the quill is retracted and the headstock, bumper and carriage are in contact. In other words, repeatability is desirable, especially if one is working with ZCIs or want to use a previously cut kerf in a sacrificial miter fence to align a cross cut.

However, with only a rubber bumper, such precise repeatability is probably wishful thinking without some modifications.

An option would be to permanently afix a dial indicator to the carriage. The indicator would need to have enough "travel" in its tip to extend beyond the rubber bumper and make contact with the headstock yet not bottom out when the headstock-bumper-carriage are brought in contact.

Repeatable distance between the headstock and carriage would be obtained by first bringing the headstock, bumper and carriage into contact and then moving the headstock or carriage slightly away from each other (but with the dial indicator tip maintaining contact with the headstock) until the blade was centered in the slot (or any other desired location in the slot). At that point, the indicator could be set to zero. Later, if the position of the headstock relative to the carriage is changed for any reason, the headstock and carriage could be brought back to the exact same relative location by moving them together or apart until the dial indicator is back to the zero location. This could be done quite precisely if there was a way-tube-sized threaded adjustable stop collar (like the one Shopsmith sells to make precise adjustments to the table height) that could be mounted to a way tube to change the location of the headstock or the carriage by small increments.

Probably way too complicated a system.
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Post by JPG »

dusty wrote:I have long labored under the assumption that the rubber ring was rubber so as to function as a soft bumper - a shock absorber.

Having used a M5 for almost 5 decades that has a 'hard' spacer, I have always been suspect of that explanation of its being rubber. I think rubber sleeves are cheaper than plastic sleeves(wag there).

The cushioning effect of that thin sleeve when an absent minded operator forgets to lock the headstock prior to raising to vertical is IMHO totally inadequate to that task!

Besides being flexible, it makes a lousy positioning spacer.

Considering the surfaces which a spacer contacts, I am amazed the firm spacer works as well as it does. The M5 surfaces are also non-vertical like the later models.

So make two spacers that are 1 1/2 wide(long?) and tweak them to center the blade.

[ATTACH]16163[/ATTACH]

This one is 1 3/8" long made from 2" pvc coupling. Gotta assume 1 3/8"
is oem defined length.
Attachments
way tube spacer 505 510 520.jpg
way tube spacer 505 510 520.jpg (249.62 KiB) Viewed 1316 times
╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10
E[/size](SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange
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