Shopsmith Forums

toolpig

I don't really care who's fault it is (or was). I recently bought a jigsaw made in Switzerland (Bosch) and several German-made tools (Festool). These are the cream of the crop. No American-made tool can come close to the quality of these tools.

Please, I would like to understand what you have just said. Do you mean that American factories are unable to manufacture tools of comparable quality (to Festool and Bosch)? or do you mean that American made tools of comparable quality would be too expensive for you to buy?

If the later is your position - do you have an opinion as to why?

Incidently, I do not believe that American Made and Quality are necessarily synonymous. Nor do I believe that Quality and Durability are necessarily synonymous. The Shopsmith happens to be all three.

Dusty -- I amended my post slightly in an attempt to be more clear.

Of course American tool companies are fully able to make quality tools here in the U.S. There are many fine American men and women still doing it. Shopsmith is a great example. Unfortunately, there aren't many other examples. Most major U.S. power tool manufacturers have moved much or all of their manufacturing operations overseas. Has this sacrificed quality? Yes and no -- I think it depends on the tool and the company.

The bottom line is that Shopsmith machines are very expensive. Because of this (and a lack of aggressive marketing on Shopsmith's part), not enough people are buying Shopsmith machines. A person can go to Home Depot or Lowe's and outfit an entire woodworking shop with dedicated machines for less money than the cost of a new Mark V. That wasn't the case 15-20 years ago, but it is today.

Perhaps Shopsmith needs to at least explore the possibility of moving some of its manufacturing operations overseas (if it hasn't already). If it means keeping a wonderful company like Shopsmith in business, then I'm all for it.

TP

dusty wrote:toolpig

I don't really care who's fault it is (or was). I recently bought a jigsaw made in Switzerland (Bosch) and several German-made tools (Festool). These are the cream of the crop. No American-made tool can come close to the quality of these tools.

Please, I would like to understand what you have just said. Do you mean that American factories are unable to manufacture tools of comparable quality (to Festool and Bosch)? or do you mean that American made tools of comparable quality would be too expensive for you to buy?

If the later is your position - do you have an opinion as to why?

Incidently, I do not believe that American Made and Quality are necessarily synonymous. Nor do I believe that Quality and Durability are necessarily synonymous. The Shopsmith happens to be all three.

toolpig wrote:I buy the very best power tools I can afford.

Period!

If they happen to be "made in USA," then great.

It used to be a given that if it was made in the USA, then it already was the very best available. That is no longer the case.

I don't really care who's fault it is (or was) -- unions, corporate greed, whatever.

I recently bought a jigsaw made in Switzerland (Bosch) and several German-made tools (Festool). These are the cream of the crop. No American-made tool comes close to the quality of these tools.

I do agree that Chinese/Taiwanese-made tools often have problems. But, again, I do my homework (read the reviews in magazines and online) and test-drive the tools whenever possible. I don't pay a lot of attention to price, as I'm usually buying a "lifetime" tool. If it's made in the US, then great. If it's not, I don't care as long as it's a quality tool that enables me to do quality work.

Get off your soapbox guys. This is the kind of thinking that is killing Shopsmith!

TP

Toolpig
Since you quoted me I think you missed my point. I don't believe it is cost, where it was manufactured, or even what the tools is. I think the problem is desire. People have to desire your product, before they will spend the money to buy it.

My point is in American Society working with your hands is out of style. Therefore using tools is out of style. I live in an area where people either live with problems or get someone to fix it, because they have no idea how to install a light, fix the single step stairs, or solve a dripping faucet.

Sure there is a tool market but the market is becomming very selective. If "Norm" uses it or they see it on the latest home remodeling show they will buy it. If the tools is deemed the top product in a magazine review then those that read the mag will be interested. Lastly reputation carries a lot of weight, But only to those that know tools. Look at your Festools everyone that knows tools proclaims them the best, but ask the average guy walking down the street is he would spend $400+ for a circular saw when B&D circular saw sell for $50 in Lowes or HD.

Now look at Shopsmith. At best it is never mentioned in any reviews, "Norm" shoved it into a corner and it's reputation is, of a compromise and everyone knows "compromises" are a little less than best.

I was talking to the guy at Lowes about specific model of Delta Tablesaw and a Hitachi saw. He looked up their sales record for year to date. They had sold less than 4 machines combined, and we were in the 8th month. He then went into the computer and looked at another store and record was about the same. Both stores are high traffic/high volume store and both are in what I would call affluent neighborhoods (middle to upper income) communities. I would say if Delta and/or Hitachi wouldn't be able to survive if they depended only on tablesaw business and were selling less than one machine a month in a two high traffic stores. I put a date on a Ridgid tablesaw box in a HD store and it hasn't moved in 5 months. The one I marked would the be the easiest to get so I think I'm safe in saying they haven't sold a Ridgid tablesaw in 5 months.

When I bought my Shopsmith in 84 it was touted as the most accurate, best tool on the market. Sure it was Shopsmith saying that but there weren't many tool magazines doing tool reviews, the internet wasn't around and nobody ever argued with SS demo guy. I also priced mine out compared to standalone and I could get the SS for less.

Shopsmith has to build desire, I think the online academy is a perfect way. I think Shopsmith needs to declare itself highly accurate and produce evidence that the average guy will accept. I think Shopsmith needs to advertise and I think Shopsmith needs to get real with it's prices. I believe the mark up it simply too high or their overhead is too high. Personally I think it is both.

I think making Shopsmith outside this country will be a huge mistake, because I think the fact their made in the US is presently a huge selling point. One of the few they still have.
Ed

I think I agree with most of what you're saying...

Shopsmith does need to advertise more and price their machines more realisticaly. This will help to build the "desire" of which you speak.

Advertising is simple -- spend more money. Advertise in magazines, demonstrate the machines at trade shows (AWFS, IWF, etc.), home centers and woodworking stores (Rockler, Woodcraft, etc.). Get cozy with the tool reviewers. Innovate and come out with a new machine once in awhile so the name Shopsmith stays in peoples' vocabularies. Do everything out loud!

As for pricing -- US materials and labor cost more than other countries. Shopsmith can't price its machines for less if they can't build them for less.

TP

Ed in Tampa wrote:Toolpig
Since you quoted me I think you missed my point. I don't believe it is cost, where it was manufactured, or even what the tools is. I think the problem is desire. People have to desire your product, before they will spend the money to buy it.

My point is in American Society working with your hands is out of style. Therefore using tools is out of style. I live in an area where people either live with problems or get someone to fix it, because they have no idea how to install a light, fix the single step stairs, or solve a dripping faucet.

Sure there is a tool market but the market is becomming very selective. If "Norm" uses it or they see it on the latest home remodeling show they will buy it. If the tools is deemed the top product in a magazine review then those that read the mag will be interested. Lastly reputation carries a lot of weight, But only to those that know tools. Look at your Festools everyone that knows tools proclaims them the best, but ask the average guy walking down the street is he would spend $400+ for a circular saw when B&D circular saw sell for $50 in Lowes or HD.

Now look at Shopsmith. At best it is never mentioned in any reviews, "Norm" shoved it into a corner and it's reputation is, of a compromise and everyone knows "compromises" are a little less than best.

I was talking to the guy at Lowes about specific model of Delta Tablesaw and a Hitachi saw. He looked up their sales record for year to date. They had sold less than 4 machines combined, and we were in the 8th month. He then went into the computer and looked at another store and record was about the same. Both stores are high traffic/high volume store and both are in what I would call affluent neighborhoods (middle to upper income) communities. I would say if Delta and/or Hitachi wouldn't be able to survive if they depended only on tablesaw business and were selling less than one machine a month in a two high traffic stores. I put a date on a Ridgid tablesaw box in a HD store and it hasn't moved in 5 months. The one I marked would the be the easiest to get so I think I'm safe in saying they haven't sold a Ridgid tablesaw in 5 months.

When I bought my Shopsmith in 84 it was touted as the most accurate, best tool on the market. Sure it was Shopsmith saying that but there weren't many tool magazines doing tool reviews, the internet wasn't around and nobody ever argued with SS demo guy. I also priced mine out compared to standalone and I could get the SS for less.

Shopsmith has to build desire, I think the online academy is a perfect way. I think Shopsmith needs to declare itself highly accurate and produce evidence that the average guy will accept. I think Shopsmith needs to advertise and I think Shopsmith needs to get real with it's prices. I believe the mark up it simply too high or their overhead is too high. Personally I think it is both.

I think making Shopsmith outside this country will be a huge mistake, because I think the fact their made in the US is presently a huge selling point. One of the few they still have.
Ed

How about this:
http://www.shopsmithhandson.com/archives/july_aug_03/html/what_s_new.htm

and this:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=frameSet&url=www.shopsmith.com/lowes_site/eventschedule.htm

It could be some information needs updating, ya think???

I do like the video on the Lowes site too.

Ed

I happened in Woodcraft store earlier this week. I ended up in a discussion with a salesman there about sales, customer demographics and such.

He said before he started working there he thought most customers were baby boomers but to his and now my surprise they have a significant percentage of young men and women. While I was there I watched the customer mix. Another guy and myself were probably the oldest ones there. What really surprised me was the number of young women coming in. Most wanted help in their selection and seemed willing to accept the salesman recommendations.

I also noticed they have dedicated nearly a full corner of the store to Festools display. If you know Festool you know were are talking buck$$. So from that I take it, that the money is out there.

I mentioned I had a Shopsmith and he smiled and shook his head, saying poor marketing and overpriced for how it is marketed. He said Shopsmith has to be marketed like Festool, as the cream of the crop instead of dirty sister no one really talks about. But he also said to do this they would have to tighten their quality control.

You know that is how I thought of the Shopsmith when I bought mine. The Mark 5 model 500 was superbly crafted. It reeked of precision and excellence. However when I ordered the 510 upgrade my opinion of the Shopsmith went down hill. The table was warped, the fence was bowed and three or four of the fence rails were marred. Customer Service helped as best they could sending out another table and fence. But I still have a non perfect table and blemished fence rails. I will say the 520 upgrade was more of the caliber I expected from Shopsmith.

Ed

I personaly think that when buisinesses in the US are taken over by the younger generation or should I say sons and daughters they get greedy. Now shopsmith has seen an increase in pricing of over double since 1990's. That is hard to swallow. If it was a jump from $100 to $200 thats one thing but $1700 to $3500 thats another. Sure the 520 is far superior than a 510 but how do you justify that much money if you are just getting into woodworking. When you went to a demo years ago you could come up with $1700 and not feel to bad. I do think that if I was just getting into woodworking and had the room I would buy stand alone machines worth $3500. All that said I still love my shopsmith and wouldn't trade it and if I had $3500 laying around wanting to be spent I would buy a new 520. But reality is I would be buying more accessories and wood.

That's why my 510 is the second love of my life! (Family first!) Like I said before, If I get the 520 upgrade, it'l be because I want one - not because I need one.

I know that prices have gone up a lot faster than my retirement income. Things like the fluctuations of the dollar on the world market both helps and hurts manufactures. The manufacturing business just isn't the same as it was a even a decade ago. Changes in manufacturing techniques and suppliers must change if any company is to survive.

I can't fault Shop smith or any of it's managers for the price rise in the Mark V. Actually I don't even know the current price. But I do know that this company, so far, has been able to maintain the very best customer service and supply of parts of any tool manufacturer any where. I would again purchase a Mark V today, if I didn't presently have one. I was sold on the concept of a Mark V some years ago and was very happy when I finally got one. At first I tried a less expensive choice, (a Crafters' Station) but that didn't work out. Prior to the Crafters' Station, I had previously used a high quality radial arm saw that filled most of my needs, (even built a house with it as the main tool) but still wanted a Mark V. Knowing what I know now, this was a very good choice. Once again, I learned one cannot thick with his pocket book! Those green bills are not capable of making good choices. I now have what I need for the woodworking I do. If I really need another capability I'll get it. But I won't buy a new product, just to do something for which I now have the capability, because it is newer or fancier. That's the curmudgeon in me.
Ed from Tampa said; "...If I was going traditional I would buy a Delta, Hitachi, Ridgid or Jet tablesaw any one of the four sells for under $600. I probably wouldn't get a lathe. I would buy a bench drill press for $200, a disk/belt sander for $200 and Delta or Rikon bandsaw for $400, and a 6" Delta jointer for $400 a Delta or Dewalt planner for $500. My total cost would be under $2300 and I would have a planner, bandsaw, beltsander and jointer that is extra with SS."

Well, I wouldn't go that way! The Mark V would still be my choice! Why? Because I really wanted one! After all they still make and sell the 510. When you check out this entire site - all of the multiple pages, http://www.shopsmith.com/markvsite/index.htm you will see what I a talking about. Shopsmith's service and available supplies/attachments are not equaled by any woodworking machine company.

scottss wrote:I personaly think that when buisinesses in the US are taken over by the younger generation or should I say sons and daughters they get greedy. Now shopsmith has seen an increase in pricing of over double since 1990's. That is hard to swallow. If it was a jump from $100 to $200 thats one thing but $1700 to $3500 thats another. Sure the 520 is far superior than a 510 but how do you justify that much money if you are just getting into woodworking. When you went to a demo years ago you could come up with $1700 and not feel to bad. I do think that if I was just getting into woodworking and had the room I would buy stand alone machines worth $3500. All that said I still love my shopsmith and wouldn't trade it and if I had $3500 laying around wanting to be spent I would buy a new 520. But reality is I would be buying more accessories and wood.

Scottss
You make a very good point and one that has been brought up before in this discussion. When I bought my Shopsmith 1984 for $1200 it was nearly impossible to buy separate machines that did the same thing for less. In fact I do believe when I priced them out I came up with about $1600 or so.

However today you can buy an excellent tablesaw for $1000, a drill press for $200 and lathe can be used to horizontal bore for $1200 and disk/belt sander for $300. If you don't need that good of lathe or tablesaw there are still some very good choices out there for less that $800 for each. In fact a Jet just came out with a very interesting saw for $499 that has excellent dust collection and fairly nice fence.

When I bought my SS and compared it to quality of the machines on the market it was far superior. However technology has moved on and many manufactures are able to equal or surpass SS quality and do it far cheaper.

If I was getting into Woodworking today I would probably go the Festool route and use the guided tools system. I would have excellent dust collection and absolutely no storage concerns. Plus I would have the added safety that comes from not having to maneuver wood around. I would have excellent machines and the price would be close to the cost of a new Shopsmith. I would not have a lathe, but I would have a router and jointer and planner.

If I was going traditional I would buy a Delta, Hitachi, Ridgid or Jet tablesaw any one of the four sells for under $600. I probably wouldn't get a lathe. I would buy a bench drill press for $200, a disk/belt sander for $200 and Delta or Rikon bandsaw for $400, and a 6" Delta jointer for $400 a Delta or Dewalt planner for $500. My total cost would be under $2300 and I would have a planner, bandsaw, beltsander and jointer that is extra with SS.
Ed

Not to beat a dead horse, but this site may be interseting for those of us who believe that buying products that are made in the USA helps our economy and keeps Americans working at good paying jobs. Shopsmith is in their database too! www.madeinUSA.com

One of many interseting quotes on this site: "There are 293 million people living in the United States. If each one would shift $20 a month in spending from foreign made products to American made products, that would create 5 million new jobs."