Brass wedge locks

[badtheba]

I consider wedge wear to be a nit so to speak. Yes it occurs, but extremely slowly My goldie has the original wedges. Yes they are worn and tend to stick, but tis simple to push in and release it. Only when I am already in thar and the headstock is on the bench will they get attention.(unless they stick far worse)

BTW I think the soft alloy will work better than the brass(simply gut feel!). I believe they are soft for a reason.(automatic conformitry to the tube shape).

I certainly agree with you. I think the biggest culprit is over tightening over the years. The 3 MK V and 2 10ER's in use in the shop have no problems.

My other 10ER with single wedges like yours has no problem, and I don't see them ever being a problem for me. The two piece ones, however, would not function at all when I first picked up the second machine, because the nuts had actually come out the back of the rear wedges and were just spinning, leaving the rear wedge tight against the tube. That's one reason I'm considering shortening them (Skip's site mentions filing down the inside ends as necessary at times) and giving enough room for a stiff spring in the middle like the quill lock has. I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the material, just years of over tightening has taken its toll.

However, as Everett has pointed out, I'm sure threading the actual brass wedges instead of having a nut that can slip out was a much better design because simply pushing in on or wiggling the bolt would be enough to loosen the wedge without having to deal with the nut slipping out as mine had.

[chapmanruss]

It may be easier to get the correct set. Machining a new set out of brass will take some work to add the key part. Yours had the pin added to a replacement front wedge to make it work. I have owned/own six Model 10's with the keyed quill lock and none of them had a pin for the "key". They all look like the keyed one in the picture I posted of the different quill locks. In fact the two pictured in this discussion are the only ones I have seen with a pin. I have restored 16 Model 10's and currently have 3 more to restore.

I looked at my records for Model 10's I have restored and only 10E's had plain double wedge quill locks, without a key, but the double wedge way tube locks for the headstock and carriage continued until all locks went to single wedge.

My newest one with a plain double wedge quill lock is S/N 19541. S/N 4708 had brass ones and changed by S/N 8865.

My oldest 10E with the keyed double wedge quill locks was S/N 25951 with the newest being 10ER S/N R50474.

My oldest 10ER with single wedge quill and way tube locks is S/N R55037. They continued being single wedge locks from then on.

Keep in mind that these are mostly or all West Coast Serial Numbers. All my Model 10's with a letter in front of the serial number have an "R" believed to be west coast plant produced, but that is another discussion we don't need to go into here.

It is interesting that only the brass wedges had the wedge cut on both sides (opposite not ends). The design of the single wedges and "keyed" wedges would not allow for this but the other double wedges could have been. Maybe they didn't do that because of the softer material.

[badtheba]

In fact the two pictured in this discussion are the only ones I have seen with a pin.

The fact that the pin appears to have contacted the quill at all made me conclude you guys are right, and that this is someone's modification. However, the length of the wedge in question is still quite a bit longer then a front wedge from a way tube lock. Look close at my pic and you can see the "rod" portion is longer. So maybe someone manufactured the whole thing and ground an angle on it.

[badtheba]

It may be easier to get the correct set. Machining a new set out of brass will take some work to add the key part.

I just reread your post and remembered I meant to say that the quill lock works on mine with no issue other than the pin being bent back. Nothing is flattened or misshapen, probably because it doesn't take much effort to lock the quill since slippage isn't as likely as with the entire headstock or carriage (weight of the parts, plus switching from horizontal to vertical). I may not need any set with a key made if I decided to have my father in law make them from brass, just the way tube sets.

[robinson46176]

I noticed maybe a couple of references to finding brass rod the proper diameter to make locks. You don't need round rod... Think woodworking for a second. When you want to make a round table leg you don't usually go looking for a big dowel that size to start with. That is what lathes do. Square, hex... About anything you can chuck / center is fair game to make what you want.

This thread brought back memories of back when my mid-40's son was a teenager. He was quite strong and had not yet learned to temper force with feel. He learned quickly but at the time he probably got tired of my constantly reminding him that "Godzilla does not work in my shop".
I really guarded my SS locks.


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[chapmanruss]

The front wedge lengths are different for the quill and way tube locks. The handle or lever, the name given in the parts list, is different between the Quill Lock and the Way Tube Locks for the headstock and carriage in all but the later single wedge locks. The single wedge is the same in all. In the picture I posted earlier the 3 double wedge are quill lock levers and the single is actually a late quill or way tube lock lever as can be seen from the different lever. The early single quill lock lever was different from the way tube levers, in the same way as all the double wedge locks. All clear as mud now, right? Sorry I did not use the correct front wedge for the second from the left plain double wedge lock which is shorter and from a way tube lock, my bad. Only the brass set came out of my 10E, the others are extras I have. It sounds like you need a front keyed quill lock wedge to replace the one with a pin in it and a front & rear way tube lock set. Is that correct?

My thought on the brass wedges is they went to the softer material for the wedges to avoid possible damage to the tubes from over-tightening. They still use the same material in the wedges today.

[badtheba]

I'm going to try the filling/cutting down the inner face tricks outlined on Skip's site before I try anything else I think. If that falls to produce satisfactory results I will look to either purchase replacements or have my father in law help me machine replacements. Nothing looks hard about it, I just don't have the same type of experience with metals as I do with wood.

I'm also going to try to drill a new hole in the top of the quill lock behind the existing pin hole 1/4" or so and press the pin back in, maybe with epoxy this time. If it doesn't contact the quill but keeps the wedge aligned in the headstock keyway it should work.

I also read somewhere of someone passing a 3/8-16 bolt through the wedge and tightening with a nut, then inserting the bolt into the drill chuck to turn the outside round again instead of trying to smash the metal back into shape. I don't think I'll go that far, as mine had no trouble slipping into or out of the bores.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[chapmanruss]

The key isn't really needed it only keeps things aligned while assembling them. Look how many were made without the keyed quill lock both before and after. All of the way tube locks were made without a key-way. Once the wedges are aligned and close to the quill or way tube they stay in alignment. Try leaving out the pin and see if it works to your satisfaction.

[badtheba]

I decided I would potentially sacrifice one set of the wedges to see if I could manage to improve them. I'll find out tomorrow if I improved or destroyed them.

First I threaded one set together until the worn spots tightly contacted a tube of the 10ER to get an idea of the starting gap between wedges. Then I compressed the spring out of the quill lock to get an idea of how much space I would need for that to fit between the way tube wedges.

I decided because my wedges were quite visibly out of round (.040 difference in diameter of each axis), it was worth taking a chance. With the thickness at the bottom of the bevel only 1/16", if I shortened them on the inside faces it would still leave the thinnest material thicker than before, and hopefully less likely to change shape. Therefore I could sacrifice some of the mass of the wedge that was really just ending up along side the tube anyway, and not directly contacting it or applying force to anything but the inside of the bore.

I needed to take roughly 1/8" off the end of each wedge for the spring to fit in the middle, increasing the gap from a bit over 1/8" to a bit over 3/8". I marked the pieced, clamped them into a V block, and used an oscillating tool with an all purpose blade (really too dull for this job) to cut them close to square.

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I then moved it around a bit and filed them flat and smoothed out rough edges. My initial guess is that it will work for me because I know it's there, but if I ever sold the machine someone else may well do more damage because of my modification. Here are the end results. If the shortened wedges and spring in the middle work well, I'll do the same thing to the second set. For now I've also fitted a flanged nut the wrong way into the wedge, to hopefully spread the pressure from the back end over a greater area. If this works, I may JB weld it in place.

Here is the modified set with the unmodified (except for filing the bevels) set behind it. I'm going to try it first with a bit stiffer spring than this one. The spring should always help separate the back wedge and keep the nut seated.

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[JPG]

I think the addition of the spring is an improvement.

Shortening the wedges to allow that has not changed the surfaces that contact the way tube. Note the wear towards the 'top'(bottom?) of the wedge. shortening the wedges did/will not affect the mating surfaces. i.e. back where you started from.

I do think it will work better due to the spring and more durable nut.

Realize retaining that form fitted shape of the tube into the wedge is what causes the M5 wedges to stick. Filing them flat fixes that.