Shopsmith Forums

Since Ed wanted some pictures I managed to get a few today. Not sure if they will get posted tonight but I did want to mention that I did a test of my MFT top to the Festool top. Mine is the same 11 holes wide but two holes less in depth.

I set up the Festool then placed my top on top. I then inserted my set of Woodpecker 20mm dogs to see what would happen. The result was better then I expected. However it is not perfect. My top has holes in places where the Festool doesn't, those don't count, and I used only the matching 55 holes in my top. Of that 55 49 of them match the Festool well enough to slip in place with minimal effort. That left 6 that did not slip in and I have assume some degree of error on my table.

In this picture the green tape indicates a fit, the blue is a non-fit and the ones without tape are extras on my table.
So for clamping this is more then fine enough, for getting things square for cutting well it depends on what holes you use.

Ed

reible wrote:Since Ed wanted some pictures I managed to get a few today. Not sure if they will get posted tonight but I did want to mention that I did a test of my MFT top to the Festool top. Mine is the same 11 holes wide but two holes less in depth.

I set up the Festool then placed my top on top. I then inserted my set of Woodpecker 20mm dogs to see what would happen. The result was better then I expected. However it is not perfect. My top has holes in places where the Festool doesn't, those don't count, and I used only the matching 55 holes in my top. Of that 55 49 of them match the Festool well enough to slip in place with minimal effort. That left 6 that did not slip in and I have assume some degree of error on my table.

In this picture the green tape indicates a fit, the blue is a non-fit and the ones without tape are extras on my table.

test top.jpg

So for clamping this is more then fine enough, for getting things square for cutting well it depends on what holes you use.

Ed

Interesting. It appears that larger is not necessarily an issue with the SO accuracy.

I wanted to up date the design changes I've made to this system. When I started I screwed the table to those wood brackets that were shown earlier in the thread. After that I found a new and better way to do this. I don't think they envisioned being used this way but that has never stopped me before.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.a ... at=51&ap=4

What makes this so interesting is that you can pick the holes in the top to use and that allows more flexibility as to where the brackets can be located. You can also slide them along the brackets giving you even more adjustment.

In this example I have the headstock to the far left and the main table mounted, the 5 foot tubes then work with the fixed extension table. You could also take the main table off and add another fixed extension table on the left side and well a lot of other options. The brackets clip on the tubes just like before and you simply start at one end and pop them on.
Then locate the other end. I selected to go to the far side of the main table but it could have been on the near side just as well.
As you can see here the orange plastic parts are not attached so you have the option of locating them any where along the wood bracket so long as they match a hole in the table. I had to make some PVC rings to make sure they did not make a protuberant on the table top.
Here you can see the table in place.
Here you can see the orange plastic part below the table surface.
In the next post I will show some options that this table brings you.

Ed

The first option is how high or low you want the work space. There are some limitations in this set up as the headstock requires the table to be high enough to clear it. But again this is only one of many ways to mount this work table.

So what might you use it for? It works for a stand for other power tools, you can sand, route, plane, and cut on it just like any like table. Any of the 20mm dogs and hardware of course works with it. This of course allows some pretty interesting ways of doing things that some of you may not be aware of.

In this picture you see a Festool rail and an attachment that allows the rail to be placed at 90 degrees to the edge of the work piece. There are several options pretty much like this but what I have is the one from TSO.

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-guide-rail- ... il-square/
In this case the table is just a work surface.

Next we can set up to do some work with dogs. You simply place some dogs in the table that the work piece sets against and another set that the rail is placed against.
The rail can be held against the other dogs or they have some clips that make life a lot easier. They slide in the rail and then loop over the dogs as seen here:
The rail clips can be seen here:

https://tsoproducts.com/workholding-acc ... ail-clips/

This operation requires the hole in the table to be located so the cut is at 90 degrees, so if you do want to do this with a home made table best check the angle before you start wasting wood.

Another option might be to use any one of several devices that allow you to place the rail at a set distance and or do a bunch of repetitive cutting. In this case I have attached my Woodpecker parallel guides.
If you don't want sticker shock then don't look here:

https://www.woodpeck.com/parallel-guide-system.html

Now keep in mind the track is used with a saw most of the time but it also works with routers.

In the next post we will cover a few clamping options.

Ed

There are a lot of stops and clamps that work with the 20mm holes and in this case this is a Kreg clamp with an adapter for use in 20mm holes. It also requires that you use a knob below the table. In the set up show the main table sets below the work surface and you do not have access to the bottom for a knob. You would have to plan ahead if you plan to use this sort of clamp just anywhere.
This next clamp is from Festool, if interested I believe they sell these at Amazon and lots of other places.
Lee Valley carries these low profile stops. You can use them to make a right angle or just as a stop to work against.
This next set of wedges and clamp can be found here:

https://tsoproducts.com/accessories/ujk ... mping-set/
Next we have these dog stops.
Rather then me trying to explain these just go here and see what they are for:

https://tsoproducts.com/accessories/tds ... -worktops/

Of course it might be good idea to have a triangle to use to test for square or if you want to set something up at 45 degrees and test that.
And for the last picture in this post we have a typical clamp used for all sorts of clamping functions. As show the clamp is above the table but it could also be below the table. This one is a lever ratchet but they have ones with screw systems as well. These clamps are designed to be used on this sort of table, they will not work if the the table gets too thick........ saw a guy on youtube make that mistake. Also not all clamps that look like this work in the tables, so beware.
I've had it for the day so more will be coming but later........

Ed

Another thing I wanted to mention is that I don't like to cut into my tops so I use either a thin sheet of mdf or plywood or these to keep that from happening.
These are a hard plastic and the material will slide on them, good if that is what you want but bad if don't. I'm planning on ordering another set and putting some non-slip material on them. BTW I have twice the number shown here which seems like a lot but works better on some projects.

Now to demonstrate the table being located else where on the shopsmith. If you want access to the underside for knobs or clamps then in the first locations you were limited, not so in this position.
In this next shot I have slid the table forward more and reposition things a bit to show how that might look.
Of course this gives a wider range of heights, well lower heights anyway.

The other thing I wanted to mention is that this table when mounted over a shopsmith table has enough room to clear the table, meaning that if you wanted to add say another support and make it level it would have to be independent of the tubes.

I think this concludes this subject unless of course someone has questions???

So starting next post I will take the request about some of my tables and add them to this thread.

Ed

Now about other tables. One of my favorite and most used one is the little MFT type that mounts as an extension table.
Of course with this design it will fit either end of the machine, it will work as a stand alone table or you can use it with the main table as added support for projects on either table. It is off set side to side so it can also be rotated and have a slightly different exposure.

Here is another shot from more of the top down.
As you can see there is metal hardware there, so not so good for cutting into.... again I like to protect my tops anyway. I think I use it mostly to mount a miter saw or a router table and then next maybe sanding followed by sanding or other small hand work.

What I don't have pictures of is the bottom where it is mounted so it can be leveled to other shopsmith tables, that has come in handy on more then one occasion.

Next we can look at my Festool MFT. The legs fold under so that is great for storage. BTW the leg braces are extra and you might as well plan to get them if you get the table.
My newest addition is the extension table for the MFT. It attaches to the MFT and has it's own set of legs on one end. Of course the legs fold in so that is also great for storage. It will mount anywhere along the perimeter of the MFT.
There is a wealth of information out on the web about the table so if you are interesting you can go there to start reading/watching. The table I have is a package that can be seen here:

https://www.festoolproducts.com/festool ... table.html

Before I got into the tops with all the holes I got the Rockler clamping table. They meant for it to be mounted to one of their stands but that was to big an investment in space for me so I just use the top on top of something. The bottom is smooth so you need to either clamp it and or put some non-slip material down first. The bottom isn't exciting but just a place to start.
Here it is shown setting atop the MFT.
I'm going to take a little time off and then finish this thread.

Ed

The Rockler table was normally used on a different set up which I will attempt to explain now. I have one of the older B&D units and I have a few tables that I attach to that.
How I do that is with a 2 x 3 or 4 attached to the bottom of the table like this:
Then you simply clamp it. Here is one of my tables that has a 90 degree fixture and clamping fixture that I use for face frames and other such things. This included mounting the Rockler table since it has the two side fixed already.
This next system is one called a Centipede. I have the smaller 2'x4' version and the larger 4'x8'. They are pretty much the same except for size. I use the larger one to break down the full sheets of plywood and the smaller for anything smaller. The smaller one gets the most use.

When folded it looks like this:
The strap is much easier to deal with the storage bag it comes with.

When set up it looks like this:
I like the higher position these added parts give you especially when working with the SO.
Another optional part are these pads which are keep things from sliding around.
The way I use it post often is to put a sheet of plywood down then some foam to cut into like this:
Of course I still have some other tables like one for the miter saw but I don't think they are that special so I will not cover them.

I hope this covers what Ed wanted.

Ed

Lots of great pictures Ed. How do you like your Woodpecker parallel guide system. I almost bought that but went with the new TSO system. I have been using it to rip some boards down to 2 inches or so and it works great. I think TSO products are great but very expensive. My parallel guide system is almost twice as much as the Woodpecker mainly because of the two squares that attach to the rail guide. But it is a very solid system, easy to set up, use and great accuracy.
As far the subject of SO accuracy, it has been a concern for a long time with very few people understanding the issues. About 18 months ago the CEO of the company, Joe, even had to get into fray with a number of posts to try to calm people down. Here is a couple of links to that.

https://community.shapertools.com/t/reviews/393/13

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/cnc/ ... ve-review/

Bottom line is errors are caused by so many diverse things they can appear to be random like you have experienced with the MTF. The basic guildeline that Joe gave is that the SO can be expected to have an accuracy of 98% of the total span distance of the scan. So if you are working on a 30" by 40" MFT the max span would be 50" which is the diagonal across the table. The error should be no more than 0.2% or .002 X 50 or about 0.1". Problem is that is a maximum and very often we will experience much better accuracy and worse it is very probabilistic. You might get the maximum error for the hole at 25 inches and much better one at 50 inches. Your four corner holes being a good is an example of that. All you can bank on is the max error which might pop up at any time. One way you can mitigate the error is to reduce the span by dividing the project up into sectors if possible. Many times it isn't possible but a drill a hole grid is a good example of one that can be divided up. I am going to try the technique explained in the Shaper Forum you just posted on yesterday. I should be able to hold the max errors to between 1/64 to 1/32" and achieve much better than that most of the time. We will see how that work out.

I have fears that the step and repeat will not be as good as just going and doing the whole thing. The reason I say this has to do with my background in drafting and mechanical design. You use only one datum and all measurements are from that. This is how the shaper works too, you set an x and y and all measurements are done from that. If you set multiple datum's then each local group will be more accurate within the group but group to group will not.

Now if you had a way to make a super accurate hole locations then it might be different but that is against design principals in general.

I have several methods that I can use to generate the holes but the SO is by far the easiest. I have the early Parf system:

https://tsoproducts.com/workholding-acc ... de-system/

I have the Woodpecker jig:

https://www.woodpeck.com/hole-boring-jig-2019.html

and even a 20mm steel bushing for a do it yourself jig. I also had some parf dogs made with hardened 3mm centered holes that would allow a MFT to be reproduced using the top as a guide and the dogs to locate the new holes. Then the holes would be done using the parf drilling tool. All of those are a lot of work.

If I really need a new top I'll spend the money and get the better material and the more accurate top from Festool. Amazon even carries them:

https://www.amazon.com/Festool-495543-R ... =8-1-fkmr1

For the ad-hock tables I do the SO is likely going to be fine.

Ed