Shopsmith Forums

dusty wrote:When I was growing up, a local Church would have taken these folks in until they could care for themselves - however long that might be.

And that's the way it should be, Dusty. Families and communities should be the primary source of "help for poor folks."

We're not the "Land of the Free" anymore because people don't understand what freedom means. There's a lot of sacrifice and hardship and self-reliance involved in freedom. But people today think freedom means letting the government take care of us and manage our lives and pay our medical expenses, buy us groceries, help us buy a house and go to school, etc. Things that, if we were free, we would be doing for ourselves. Meanwhile, the government is spying on us, recording our phone calls and text messages, reading our emails, tracking our web browsing, watching us with traffic cameras and drones, all to make sure we stay compliant. That's not freedom. That's serfdom at best.

Heath, there's only so much the local folks can do to help the poor, but if 10 members of your church group need an open heart operation that would cost $200,000 each, could/would you be willing to share the expense or let them die. That's what insurance is for, to keep you and your family members out of the poor house. You shouldn't have to be forced to make that kind of decision when there are options available, yes, even from Big Gov.
Fred

I don't have a problem with insurance. Insurance is a great supplement. But I do have a problem with mandated insurance. How is it freedom to be told I have to purchase insurance, under penalty of law, just as a consequence of my existence? That's not freedom. That's not liberty. It's the opposite.

Maybe I won't be able to pay for an open heart operation I might need if I choose not to buy insurance and my family and community can't help. The result of stupid personal decisions is part of the price of freedom. And it's worth it to me because those decisions are mine to make alone. When the government makes them for me, I'm no longer free.

"Government that is big enough to give everything you need and want is also strong enough to take it away."

fredsheldon wrote:Heath, there's only so much the local folks can do to help the poor, but if 10 members of your church group need an open heart operation that would cost $200,000 each, could/would you be willing to share the expense or let them die. That's what insurance is for, to keep you and your family members out of the poor house. You shouldn't have to be forced to make that kind of decision when there are options available, yes, even from Big Gov.
Fred

We don't know that yet!! I hear a lot of discussion about review boards that (if implemented) will have the ability to determine that I am not eligible for that open heart procedure (or cancer treatment or knee replacement or whatever).

I also hear discussions about some medicines that might not be paid for by ObamaCare because of their high cost. I just don't know yet.

I am fearful that there is an awful lot that Nancy didn't know about before she (and others) voted for ObamaCare.

heathicus wrote:I don't have a problem with insurance. Insurance is a great supplement. But I do have a problem with mandated insurance. How is it freedom to be told I have to purchase insurance, under penalty of law, just as a consequence of my existence? That's not freedom. That's not liberty. It's the opposite.

Maybe I won't be able to pay for an open heart operation I might need if I choose not to buy insurance and my family and community can't help. The result of stupid personal decisions is part of the price of freedom. And it's worth it to me because those decisions are mine to make alone. When the government makes them for me, I'm no longer free.

"Government that is big enough to give everything you need and want is also strong enough to take it away."

Heath, that's easy to answer. If you choose not to purchase insurance and you are involved in an accident and require $500,000 worth of body repair work(the human kind), we ALL pay your bill if you are taken to the emergency room. And you get off completely free. Now is that fair? Heck, no. I say you should have to sell your nice truck and home first and spend all your savings before we, the public, have to pay one red cent for your body repairs. Now that's Freedom. We are FREE from having to pay for your care. What say you

fredsheldon wrote:Heath, that's easy to answer. If you choose not to purchase insurance and you are involved in an accident and require $500,000 worth of body repair work(the human kind), we ALL pay your bill if you are taken to the emergency room. And you get off completely free. Now is that fair? Heck, no. I say you should have to sell your nice truck and home first and spend all your savings before we, the public, have to pay one red cent for your body repairs. Now that's Freedom. We are FREE from having to pay for your care. What say you

I say two wrongs don't make a right. If I choose not to buy insurance, and I get into an accident, then I alone should have the obligation to pay for it. You should not be forced to pay for my hospital bill. If I can't pay for that service, then I should not receive that service unless someone or some entity voluntarily covers the expense.

The answer is not to force me to buy insurance or is it to force other people to help me against their will. The answer is to let me suffer the consequences of my stupid decisions. Or help me voluntarily.

davebodner wrote:If this unfortunate person is in Louisiana, then you can probably blame your State government for rejecting the expanded Medicaid. The original law required all the States to expand their Medicaid eligibility. But, the Supreme Court invalidated that requirement, making it optional.

Here are the details. http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/ ... g_for.html

Saw the following article and remembered this conversation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/01/02/new-oregon-data-expanding-medicaid-increases-usage-of-emergency-rooms-undermining-central-rationale-for-obamacare/2/

heathicus wrote:Saw the following article and remembered this conversation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/01/02/new-oregon-data-expanding-medicaid-increases-usage-of-emergency-rooms-undermining-central-rationale-for-obamacare/2/

This thread will never die

I will say beware of the source (Avik Roy). I don't trust anyone who made a fortune scamming Americans and out-sourcing their jobs while working at Brookside Capital (a front for Bain capital) then pretends to come off worrying about debt and the little guy. Brookside Capital has been cited by the SEC multiple times.


Well...that and he is a liar for anyone willing to pay him (fracking companies, big pharmaceutical companies, tobacco companies, private prison companies, Romney, etc.).

Putting on hazardous suit complete with breathing apparatus, full face shield and hard hat.

Of the three local hospitals, most of the ER visits to Baptist Hospital (not for profit) are those un insured, under insured and Medicare/Medicaid or medically necessasry. Doctors will not see you in their offices if you are on medically necessary state coverage, so the only option for treatment is ER. And, if that situation is not completely healed, you are back in the ER, sometimes several times. Now, the state gets its money from taxpayers and it reimburses the hospital ER.
For those with no insurance or under insured, they get the same treatment as those of us who do have insurance. If they don't get to see a doctor, they also only get Urgent Care or ER. Local Urgent cares will not treat those on Medicaid or medically necessary. They refer the patient (as do the doctors) to the ER. Many folks get sick in the evening after the doctors have gone home. Urgent Care closes anywhere from 6 pm to 8 pm. If you arrive 15 minutes before closing time, they refer you to the ER. Too much experience and not enough time or space to explain all that. If the patient does get a full recovery from the ER visit, no more visits to the ER, but the ER doctor refers you to your primary doctor who does not exist.
With Medicare, doctors are supposed to provide same level of care with less pay. Patients are paying more copay for medicare visits. Thus the need for supplements.
Now those of us who prefer and can get insurance, our premiums have doubled since 2003. And, our copays and coinsurance are up exponentially. Last year while my wife was in the hospital, they gave her two aspirin for $100 which was not covered by her part A or B Medicare. Since we have insurance, it was referred to Blue Cross/Blue Shield. They paid $8 for those 2 aspirins. You can almost buy a bottle of 100 Bayer aspirin for that much money. In addition, one nurse thought and decided that my wife needed an air mattress which anyone can buy off the internet for $80. That was a $600 charge for an air mattress. A pneumonia shot was given to her by this same nurse, no doctor orders on either product, was another $600. Again, Medicare A or B would cover this. It again was referred to the insurance. So, those bills cause insurance premiums to go up. And, what is not covered by insurance or Medicare, is then forwarded to the state for reimbursement. Those who have been responsible and accountable with ourselves by acquiring and paying for insurance have to pay more for those who misbehave in clinical settings and for those who choose not to have insurance. I grew up poor on a farm with grandparents and had no insurance. When my sister and I got sick, it was taken out of the food budget. Sometimes, we couldn't afford to pay for the coal to heat our house because we had to pay the doctor. We also explained to the doctor that we couldn't afford the medications. We purchased what we could that was over the counter.
If someone chooses not to be insured, they should not get the same treatment at an ER, urgent care or primary doctor at our expense. pay for it yourself and quit the bitching. I've been paying for insurance since 1971, never thought about being without it. I've been and remain responsible for myself, my wife and my family. I purchased insurance on two of my grandchildren in the event something should happen. I do not want either of them to die. In the unwanted case that either of them do, the family and the community at large should not also suffer a financial loss. If a person wants to eat, he should work for it.
It really frustrates me that local CEO's of hospitals get paid excessively. Sacred Heart Hospital gets $1.75 million per year, Baptist Hospital gets $2.5 million per year, West Florida Hospital CEO gets $2.75 million per year in salaries. Doctors and nurses make much less. This income information was just recently printed in our local newspaper. I would give you a link, but then I have to subscribe to the paper to find that link or even look at the obituatries.
I'll not be back on this thread.

Don't run away so soon

Seriously though, your post was spot on. Our system is not sustainable under Obamacare and was unsustainable before Obamacare. It WILL collapse sooner or later. Hopefully something better rises from the ashes than this: http://youtu.be/baotpnED40g