Shopsmith Forums

Ed in Tampa wrote:Relatively modest price??????? How about doubling the cost of the saw. The saw he was using was a cheap Ryobi that sold for under 200. Which probably cost the manufacture $100 or less to build. Add to that $100 the cost and royality of Gass's product and manufacturer would have had somewhere around double the cost of the original saw to get it to market.

Yes Gass will dispute that figure but as of yet he hasn't been able to bring to market a saw using his technology that isn't 2 to 3 times the cost of similar saws on the market.

Simply put the saw would probably cost $400 or more. I don't know this man's employers cash flow but it is conceivable that being forced to pay this much for a saw would preclude the employer from ever hiring the man that got hurt. Nobody thinks about that.

Also what nobody thinks about is how many workers Ryobi will be forced to layoff because their once under $200 saw is now over $400 and nobody is buying them. How many thousands of dollars will be lost there. Who feeds the kids of these laidoff workers? The bottom feeding lawyers don't care.

How about the small business that now can't get workers comp for a price they can afford to pay because everyone saw this big pay out and potential for more bottom feeding lawyers to make money, so he has to go out of business. Who feeds the kids of the workers he laid off?

All action have reactions and reactions often aren't considered by jurys, judges or bottom feeding lawyers.

Would you please site some specifics that back up this ascertain. I am curious because this is the sort of table saw that I think of when I dream and I cannot find a SawStop that costs 3 times what this does. Here is what I see for comparable SawStops.

Ed in Tampa wrote:Relatively modest price??????? How about doubling the cost of the saw. The saw he was using was a cheap Ryobi that sold for under 200. Which probably cost the manufacture $100 or less to build. Add to that $100 the cost and royality of Gass's product and manufacturer would have had somewhere around double the cost of the original saw to get it to market.

Yes Gass will dispute that figure but as of yet he hasn't been able to bring to market a saw using his technology that isn't 2 to 3 times the cost of similar saws on the market.

Simply put the saw would probably cost $400 or more. I don't know this man's employers cash flow but it is conceivable that being forced to pay this much for a saw would preclude the employer from ever hiring the man that got hurt. Nobody thinks about that.

Also what nobody thinks about is how many workers Ryobi will be forced to layoff because their once under $200 saw is now over $400 and nobody is buying them. How many thousands of dollars will be lost there. Who feeds the kids of these laidoff workers? The bottom feeding lawyers don't care.

How about the small business that now can't get workers comp for a price they can afford to pay because everyone saw this big pay out and potential for more bottom feeding lawyers to make money, so he has to go out of business. Who feeds the kids of the workers he laid off?

All action have reactions and reactions often aren't considered by jurys, judges or bottom feeding lawyers.

Congrats on your $400 estimate: that's what the testimony at trial said the price of the saw would have been with the technology. Yes, in my opinion that's a relatively modest price compared to the cost of the injuries the technology would prevent, and no I don't think that extra $200 would put many companies out of business or prevent them from hiring if they have a job to do.

As for Ryobi having to lay off people because nobody would buy saws at that price, I think that's a very imaginitive argument but it doesn't remotely hold up to examination. If Ryobi believed putting SawStop in their domestic saws would put them at a competitive disadvantage, Ryobi wouldn't have sent an executed license agreement to Gass for all domestic table saws.

As for workers' comp, it works in exactly the opposite way that you think and the lawsuit's outcome can have no impact on business's premium. Workers' comp operates on a no fault basis. If a worker is injured on the job for any reason, the workers' comp insurance company pays the worker's medical bills, etc. whether it was the worker's fault, the business' fault or someone else's fault (manufacturer's defective product). The workers' comp insurance company then sues (in the name of the injured worker) anyone else (other than the employer, which is immune from suit under workers' comp laws) who may be liable for the accident to recoup the workers' comp insurance company's loss on the claim. Yes, the more accidents you have as an employer the higher your premiums will be; but the success or failure of the suit brought by the workers' comp company has ZERO impact on that. Moreover, if the saw that caused Osorio's inury had SawStop there probably would have been much less severe injuries (if any) and thus no significant pay out by the workers' comp insurer on the claim and hence less rise in premiums to the business. In fact, insurers apparently are already offering discounts to employers who switch to SawStop saws for that very reason and many are doing so.

dusty wrote:Would you please site some specifics that back up this ascertain. I am curious because this is the sort of table saw that I think of when I dream and I cannot find a SawStop that costs 3 times what this does. Here is what I see for comparable SawStops.

I think he was speaking specifically to contractor type saws.

The SawStop contractor saw "starts" at $1,599.

The Hitachi contractor saw I traded for my Mark 5 cost me ~$250 new (SawStop is 6 times more expensive).

Googling for Ryobi contractor saws, I see one model for under $100, some others for around $150 (SawStop is 10 to 15 times more expensive).

Looking at contractor table saw at Lowes' web site, the most expensive they list is a Steel City saw at $883.72 (SawStop is nearly 2x as expensive). There's a Porter Cable and a Dewalt each around the $500 mark (SawStop is about 3 times as expensive). But they have plenty of others around the $150 mark.

algale wrote:As for Ryobi having to lay off people because nobody would buy saws at that price, I think that's a very imaginitive argument but it doesn't remotely hold up to examination.

It holds up to market forces. The contractor in the Osario case, like most contractors, probably bought the saw that was the least expensive. They didn't buy a Delta or a Porter Cable. They bought a cheap Ryobi. If that Ryobi had not been cheap, they would have bought an Hitachi or a Skil.

dusty wrote:Would you please site some specifics that back up this ascertain. I am curious because this is the sort of table saw that I think of when I dream and I cannot find a SawStop that costs 3 times what this does. Here is what I see for comparable SawStops.

Yup - the comparable sawstop is about the same price...perhaps cheaper depending on various factors.

I think one issue here is the race to the bottom with regards to price. If you are willing to sacrifice all quality and safety you can sell all kinds of stuff. Shoot, put double stick tape+some blocks of wood on a circular and you could claim a table saw. At some point either the market or the government has to decide where priorities are. Inherently, people will choose to pay as little as possible in many circumstances. So, either we dictate that the minimum available for sale has the requisite safety features for forseeable accidents, or we as a society choose to accept the results (injuries, etc). One option would be that the insurance companies institute the requirement for business liability coverage for their workers, leaving home users to make their own choices.

Eh ! What happened to the thread's subject ?
Dusty does not needs more discussions about the saw stop ... more discussions about his future Mark 7 ...
Talk about a thread gone array.
I am just kidding you guys !
Dusty, did you make up your mind ?

camerio wrote:Eh ! What happened to the thread's subject ?
Dusty does not needs more discussions about the saw stop ... more discussions about his future Mark 7 ...
Talk about a thread gone array.
I am just kidding you guys !
Dusty, did you make up your mind ?

No, I have not and I probably won't for a while. I want the RV back on the road worse than I want the PowerPro right now.

If I had the RV back in top shape, I could begin dropping in on you guys. You can convince me with personal demo's.

The power pro is not about to come to Quebec city, but Dusty you are still welcome to park your RV near my home.

camerio wrote:The power pro is not about to come to Quebec city, but Dusty you are still welcome to park your RV near my home.

I have annotated my list of possible destinations.

My responses in Blue Ed in Tampa

[quote="algale"]Congrats on your $400 estimate: that's what the testimony at trial said the price of the saw would have been with the technology. Yes, in my opinion that's a relatively modest price compared to the cost of the injuries the technology would prevent, and no I don't think that extra $200 would put many companies out of business or prevent them from hiring if they have a job to do. Having been the financial backing guy for a general constractor I can tell you if the cheap throw away saws we bought for under $200 would have cost $400 we would not of bought them. I personally bought 3 over the course of out building venture and I know this for a fact since I was the one that bought them.

Also we hired a laborer to more of less make the cuts on our saws. If these saws would not have been available we would have bought a Delta contractor and only trusted ourselves to run it. Therefore a man would not have had a job.

In todays labor force you don't trust a guy to run a machine usless you can afford to replace it. We couldn't have afforded to replace 3 $600+ contractor saws so we would not have let a who gives a care laborer run them.

As for Ryobi having to lay off people because nobody would buy saws at that price, I think that's a very imaginitive argument but it doesn't remotely hold up to examination. If Ryobi believed putting SawStop in their domestic saws would put them at a competitive disadvantage, Ryobi wouldn't have sent an executed license agreement to Gass for all domestic table saws. Ryobi is already at a competitive disadvantage. They have reduced their product line down to the point you can hardly find one of their products.

As for workers' comp, it works in exactly the opposite way that you think and the lawsuit's outcome can have no impact on business's premium. Workers' comp operates on a no fault basis. If a worker is injured on the job for any reason, the workers' comp insurance company pays the worker's medical bills, etc. whether it was the worker's fault, the business' fault or someone else's fault (manufacturer's defective product). The workers' comp insurance company then sues (in the name of the injured worker) anyone else (other than the employer, which is immune from suit under workers' comp laws) who may be liable for the accident to recoup the workers' comp insurance company's loss on the claim. Yes, the more accidents you have as an employer the higher your premiums will be]
Having had to buy workers comp I also know that your premiums go up with every claim. Ours did and we didn't have a claim when we asked about the increases we were told that they were having to pay out more so they were charging more. We finally got out of the business because of things like workers comp, contractor liability insurance, etc.


Also from talking to other guys in the business most accidents down happen because the worker got his hand in blade. Many happen because the worker cut his hand on the sheet metal edge of the saw cabinet, dropped the saw on to his leg, twisted his back throwing it in the truck, got something in his eye because he wasn't wearing safety glasses when he was cuttting on the saw. or tripped over the cord.

In my years of home building/woodworking I saw a few people hurt but none from having their hand cut in a running saw blade. My neighbor may be the one exception but both he and I agree his thumb was not cut by the blade but smacked hard enough by kickback to split open his thumb. Something sawstop would not have prevented.

dusty wrote:Would you please site some specifics that back up this ascertain. I am curious because this is the sort of table saw that I think of when I dream and I cannot find a SawStop that costs 3 times what this does. Here is what I see for comparable SawStops.

Dusty
You never compare apple to apples. Take the contractor saw for $1500 I think the price once all the dealing is done is $1800. A Ridgid T3650 which I would call an equal sold for $600. But even at $1500 it is still twice the Ridgid which I view as a superior saw. The hobbiest hybred Sawstop lists for $2299 which I think actually costs closer to $2400 is equaled or bettered by General, Steel City, Orion, Sears, Grizzly, ShopFox and they cost between $800 and $1200.

The Delta Unisaw you list is "list price" I believe I can beat that price by a lot but in any case it is twice the saw the Sawstop is. Go look Shopfox tablesaw http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Fox-W1819-10 ... B004IYJ9Y2 for an example of an equal saw.