Shopsmith Forums

robinson46176 wrote:I am surprised that it was there even once. All I was getting was messages that the connection was timing out... I could go anywhere but back to the SS forum so I went out to water the client horses and was going to try to post it later.
I blame the elves...

I think you can still delete the duplicate. Edit advanced delete reason delete delete.

JPG40504 wrote:I think you can still delete the duplicate. Edit advanced delete reason delete delete.

Duplicate gone I think...

YEA! Tis gone! Notice the later posts have been renumbered!

JPG40504 wrote:Sadly you are quite correct.

'Safe procedures' will help protect the unwary/careless(if followed).

Unfortunately some do not 'learn' until injured, and then it is too late.

The current base philosophy is to 'dumb down' so the novice does not experience the previous statement.

OK so you are saying the safety instructions are part of a dumb down process, and that some just have to get hurt to learn, and novices should do what to learn?

Somewhere we have lost the individual responsibility to be certain of our own knowledge competence prior to performing a potentially hazardous task, and depend (too much IMHO) on 'warnings' from entities far removed from the present.

Some how we depend to much on warnings? And they are "from entities far removed removed from present." What does that mean? And how do we get the "our own knowledge competence to preform a potentially hazardous task".

So are we then left to fend for ourselves and use the school of hard knocks as our source of learning.

Is that what we want to teach our children?

The result is counter-productive to the point of the 'warnings' being so overdone and frequently non-applicable that they are ignored by the very individuals that need to heed it.

Here again, what is the solution?

One of my past jobs I worked on equipment that had requirements of just 4 hours downtime in 40 years. While design of the hardware to meet the requirement was a task the problem had to deal with getting highly trained service personal to follow instructions. It took a lot more effort then what anyone had expected getting people to do what they were told and not doing what they thought was right. Signs are soon over looked, instructions were no long read, well until their jobs depended on it.

You are indeed fortunate to have been tutored in the right direction to prevent mishaps.

I just happen to be of the OPINION that we are all responsible for all our actions, and if we are harmed due to our ignorance of hazards, it is our fault for being ignorant, not someone/thing else for not 'educating' me.

Now I want you to think about this before you answer. Your grand daughter or grand son of twelve comes up to you and says teach me woodworking, I want to use your shopsmith and make things. You say fine but I have to tell you something first.... you are responsible for all of your actions and if you get hurt it is your fault for being ignorant. It is not my fault because I didn't educate you. Here are the keys to the car be home by 3:00 am.

I think when you answer this truthfully I will have a better understanding of where you are coming from on this safety issue.

Now a disclaimer! What is correct/acceptable for myself is not necessarily a good thing for others. I am three generations removed from the current mind set.

Those of a later era are burdened with the 'it is somebody elses responsibility/fault' to/that prevent/causes personal injury.

SO! Any one reading MY previous post must not take it as a recommendation for their own actions.

One thing is for sure, Ed's will expose one to less risk and can therefore be considered to be less 'childish', but I really fail to see how being more responsible for your actions is childish.

One last word! Accidents are caused and therefore do not just happen. They are usually caused by some action or lack thereof by someone directly involved. Those more careless need more 'precautions'. Those less careless are more cautious to begin with.

I like the definition of an accident as an unintentional or unexpected happening, you can add the rest to your liking.

I'll not post any more on the safety subject here or else where, it is quite clear that I'll not be changing anyone's mind on the subject and since I see no support from other board members on my position then this becomes a waste of my time and efforts. "Do as you see fit in your own eyes" wins the day.

Ed

I for one meant no disrespect to you or anyone else Ed. My position on safety issues is that safety should come from a firm understanding of the operation of the tool we are using and the material we are using it on. Also from a good foundation knowledge of woodworking techniques. This is what I would teach JPG's grand-daughter (if he asked me to). Once these elements are understood, use of many of the "safety" systems and devices becomes a matter of personal preference. Many are unnecessary, anti kickback pawls come to mind, and some can be dangerous, push sticks come to mind. I have no problems with people who feel safer with them nor do I have any with people who don't. But I would rather see someone standing squarely behind the saw in full control of his material than off to one side with less control, but counting on guards and pawls to keep him safe (one example).
The responsibility for our own actions is a whole other discussion. The relative part here is that if someone operates a potentially dangerous tool without first gaining an understanding of the potential problems he may face, and then gets hurt, I'm with the folks that say it's his own fault.

IMHO

Paul M

reible wrote:I like the definition of an accident as an unintentional or unexpected happening, you can add the rest to your liking.

Lets use Francis's examples to better illustrate my meaning. Those individuals who were working under the cars did indeed cause the 'accident'. The first by not being sufficiently knowledgeable of the parking brake design AND neglecting to chock the wheels as a precaution if the brake failed. The second by not using the proper equipment(jack stand). He also should have chocked the wheels.

Granted equipment can fail unexpectedly, BUT that causes accidental injury or other damage by NOT considering the possible chain of events if that equipment does fail and providing a secondary method of preventing the injury/damage. The chocks in the examples above are an example of such a secondary method.

If I may digress slightly, it concerns me greatly that I am seeing more and more dependence on a single safety apparatus of late. I spent some time last week at a nearby amusement park(Kings Island) and all the newer rides had a over head body 'clamp' with a 'crotch' strap which prevents sliding out from under the clamp and provides a secondary method of assuring the clamp does not 'accidentally' release, but has no 'backup' for the 'sliding' out prevention.

I'll not post any more on the safety subject here or else where, it is quite clear that I'll not be changing anyone's mind on the subject and since I see no support from other board members on my position then this becomes a waste of my time and efforts. "Do as you see fit in your own eyes" wins the day.

That would be missed, so please do not go down that road. Stop here if you wish, but please continue when/where you consider it appropriate!!! More than once you have set the proper attitude/example.

Ed

Unfortunately some do not 'learn' until injured, and then it is too late.

The current base philosophy is to 'dumb down' so the novice does not experience the previous statement.

OK so you are saying the safety instructions are part of a dumb down process, and that some just have to get hurt to learn, and novices should do what to learn?

I guess I said that poorly! No that is not the meaning I intended. Typical 'safety precautions' today ARE directed to and provided for the novice, hence the 'dumb down' reference. I do not however consider it appropriate for a 'novice' to be operating some dangerous equipment. They should be educated out of the novice category prior to operating the machinery. That is not IMHO the responsibility of the manufacturer nor the seller, but rather the user.

Somewhere we have lost the individual responsibility to be certain of our own knowledge competence prior to performing a potentially hazardous task, and depend (too much IMHO) on 'warnings' from entities far removed from the present.

Some how we depend to much on warnings? And they are "from entities far removed removed from present." What does that mean? And how do we get the "our own knowledge competence to preform a potentially hazardous task".

So are we then left to fend for ourselves and use the school of hard knocks as our source of learning.

Is that what we want to teach our children?

Well you see that is my point. The manufacturer(that entity far removed) has no ability to determine the degree of need of the user so they assume a rudimentary knowledge.

I do not recommend 'fending for ones self' as a method of acquiring proper knowledge. As you obtained yours, a mentor is probably the best source(assuming you have a good one). Reading books such as PTWFE is another good START.

No I would not teach any child as you described. As is necessary with acquainting a child with firearms, the fundamentals of proper(safe) handling comes first. That is definitely another endeavor not suitable for 'hard knocks' education!

The result is counter-productive to the point of the 'warnings' being so overdone and frequently non-applicable that they are ignored by the very individuals that need to heed it.

Here again, what is the solution?

1) Do Not include non-relevant precautions. Look for them and you shall 'discover' them. They obfuscate the purpose of the safety precaution.

One of my past jobs I worked on equipment that had requirements of just 4 hours downtime in 40 years. While design of the hardware to meet the requirement was a task the problem had to deal with getting highly trained service personal to follow instructions. It took a lot more effort then what anyone had expected getting people to do what they were told and not doing what they thought was right. Signs are soon over looked, instructions were no long read, well until their jobs depended on it.

Key word was non-applicable! Imagine having the extensive instructions NEEDED for the scenario you just described loaded up with non-relevant information that was pertinent to some other piece of equipment.

You are indeed fortunate to have been tutored in the right direction to prevent mishaps.

I just happen to be of the OPINION that we are all responsible for all our actions, and if we are harmed due to our ignorance of hazards, it is our fault for being ignorant, not someone/thing else for not 'educating' me.

Now I want you to think about this before you answer. Your grand daughter or grand son of twelve comes up to you and says teach me woodworking, I want to use your shopsmith and make things. You say fine but I have to tell you something first.... you are responsible for all of your actions and if you get hurt it is your fault for being ignorant. It is not my fault because I didn't educate you. Here are the keys to the car be home by 3:00 am.

I think when you answer this truthfully I will have a better understanding of where you are coming from on this safety issue.

Again you have extrapolated my statement into an area not intended. No I would not do it that way. That would be ludicrous! I would NOT expect a 12 yr old(or much older for that matter)child to be responsible for self obtaining that knowledge necessary. It WOULD be the responsibility of the parent to absolutely insure that that knowledge is gained by the child, and would observe any initial attempts to insure proper understanding had been achieved.

That being said, I do not expect a manufacturer to assume the role of a parent!

Now a disclaimer! What is correct/acceptable for myself is not necessarily a good thing for others. I am three generations removed from the current mind set.

Those of a later era are burdened with the 'it is somebody elses responsibility/fault' to/that prevent/causes personal injury.

SO! Any one reading MY previous post must not take it as a recommendation for their own actions.

One thing is for sure, Ed's will expose one to less risk and can therefore be considered to be less 'childish', but I really fail to see how being more responsible for your actions is childish.

One last word! Accidents are caused and therefore do not just happen. They are usually caused by some action or lack thereof by someone directly involved. Those more careless need more 'precautions'. Those less careless are more cautious to begin with.


P.S. Just to clarify, I have not encountered any non-applicable stuff in any Shopsmith safety precautions(Yet).

I'm totally exhausted! Surely JPG must feel better now.

Just a quick reminder, in case you forgot, the subject was "Using 7 1/4" Table Saw Blade - appropriate? ".

One probably should not. The Mark V was intended to be used with 9" or 10" blades. The 7 1/4" probably belongs on your circular saw and not on the Mark V.

Making Sawdust Safely

JPG40504 wrote: The result is counter-productive to the point of the 'warnings' being so overdone and frequently non-applicable that they are ignored by the very individuals that need to heed it.

Safe use of my automotive floor jack would be far better served if it read "always use support stands" instead of the silly sticker on it that says "always wear eye protection"...
Perhaps some of the guys that make some of those decisions should be exposed weekly to some version of the story of the boy who cried wolf...

Just another couple of examples of safety warnings of questionable value:

From a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for water:
Laboratory protective equipment: goggles; lab coat
In the event of a spill or discharge: Take up with sand or other noncombustible material and place into container for later disposal.

From a MSDS for sand:
Hand protection: handle with gloves
Eye protection: safety glasses
In case of skin contact: wash off with soap and plenty of water. Consult a physician.

So if you go to the beach and get sand on you, you wash it off with lots of water, then use more sand to adsorb the spilled water, then wash that sand off you with more water, then....

Gary